Removed My Rudder - Lots of Pictures and ?'s

[JeffS]

It's August 29th. High today - 64 where I live, and sustained winds >20mph, gusting to 30. Frost advisory about 100 miles north of me for tomorrow. Hard freeze expected just 170 miles north. Upper Midwest summer of 2009 sucked for warmth. And this last weekend of August is really the icing (pun intended).

So I decided to drop the rudder off the boat and solve the loose rudder problem. My steering is stiff. I know I need to do the cable - that is coming next. When the boat is on the trailer, the steering is not two finger, but it is not two hands and strong arms either. It's smooth - not effortless, but smooth. When I am at speed, the steering is two hands and strong arms to turn. My conclusion is the rudder is being forced off center in the stuffing box by the water thrust, because there is play in the shaft - and the off-center shaft is adding to the stiffness in steering.

Here is the rudder stuffing box. Does this look familiar to anyone?

Here are all of the parts of the rudder, with the exception of the square brass backing plate inside the boat.

The red plastic can be removed from the brass sleeve. There are O rings on the outside of the red plastic insert, and I replaced those. No water will be coming in between the red insert and the brass sleeve. Yay!

Inside the red insert is an "O" ring of sorts. This is worn out and causing the play in the rudder. Notes are on the picture below.

Here is the closeup of the "O" ring.

The rudders for Malibu's are, for the most part, supplied by Marine Hardware Inc if I'm not mistaken.

This does not appear to be a Marine Hardware Inc rudder, as mentioned above.

The only marking on the rudder that can give me a hint as to who made it, and who might have that super-special inside O ring is either CW or WC.

Does anyone know of this brand or stamp?

I need to replace that ring. It is the only solution to make the rudder post tight through that stuffing box. I'll grease it all up with synthetic grease when done, and bolt it all back together. I checked the local hardware stores, and no "O" rings fit right. Either too big or too small. Yes - I'll check with the dealer - but he's an hour away. I can only work via phone on this - and the first question he's going to ask is "what kind of rudder?" Then he'll take my name to call me back, check the computer, realize I didn't buy my boat from him, and I'm doing my own work, and this part (even if he CAN find it, is probably less than a buck...) you get the idea. So I thought I'd post here and see if anyone has any thoughts? As always, all help is greatly appreciated.

[msuwaterski]

Based on your description of the weather we live very near to each other. This summer has been a complete dud. Blllaaaaahhhhhhh!

Anyway, I have the same boat with the same problem. Fortunately my rudder still turns smooth and easily so I am not going to replace it until I absolutely have to (i.e. it falls off). I would recommend you contact Discount Inboard Marine. If they don't have your part they more than likely will at least know who to call.

[JeffS]

MSU (as in Mich State Univ East Lansing?) If yes - then you are probably very correct - I'm in WI.

I will indeed call skidim. Went through their catalog and website - nothing there that looked similar though. Hmmm.

Can you do me a favor? If your boat is nearby - can you check the rudder stuffing box under the rear seat floor board and see if it has that same red plastic sleeve? That will tell me if it is the factory rudder, or if it is a replacement.

Thanks in advance if you can help me out with that.

-Jeff

[msuwaterski]

Michigan State University is correct, and yes my rudder has the red plastic sleeve.

[JeffS]

Cool - that's a huge help. I'm guessing this is stock then. Anyone know what the CW or WC stamp means?. And MSU - your rudder won't fall out unless bolts sheer off. There's no way for that thing to let loose without some major metal breaking.

[martinarcher]

Cool - that's a huge help. I'm guessing this is stock then. Anyone know what the CW or WC stamp means?. And MSU - your rudder won't fall out unless bolts sheer off. There's no way for that thing to let loose without some major metal breaking.

Check out post #6....

http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index....showtopic=21001

[Baddog]

Michigan State University is correct, and yes my rudder has the red plastic sleeve.

Go Green! Go white! Go Sparty. And I do solidly believe that MSU has yet to graduate a virgin.

[jim05rlxi]

MSU (as in Mich State Univ East Lansing?) If yes - then you are probably very correct - I'm in WI.

I will indeed call skidim. Went through their catalog and website - nothing there that looked similar though. Hmmm.

Can you do me a favor? If your boat is nearby - can you check the rudder stuffing box under the rear seat floor board and see if it has that same red plastic sleeve? That will tell me if it is the factory rudder, or if it is a replacement.

Thanks in advance if you can help me out with that.

-Jeff

my 92 flightcraft had the same set up and i just went threw the dealer and they sent us the part was not very cheap.

[Sandy Rogers]

MSU (as in Mich State Univ East Lansing?) If yes - then you are probably very correct - I'm in WI.

I will indeed call skidim. Went through their catalog and website - nothing there that looked similar though. Hmmm.

Can you do me a favor? If your boat is nearby - can you check the rudder stuffing box under the rear seat floor board and see if it has that same red plastic sleeve? That will tell me if it is the factory rudder, or if it is a replacement.

Thanks in advance if you can help me out with that.

-Jeff

my 92 flightcraft had the same set up and i just went threw the dealer and they sent us the part was not very cheap.

Just last year bought my 90 euro f3 and noticed in hard turns I was getting a work out.. ( you should see my wifes arms after one season!) the rudder binds when under heavy thrust. I checked my friends F3 rudder and his (wifes arms) and both seemed normal.. my rudder is sloppy in the stuffing box also.. (sounds dirty) I thought it may just be loose slip nuts, but have not taken the monkey wrench to it yet!.. The boat is in WI (3 hrs north) Interested in how your part search comes out! Sandy

[JeffS]

For Sandy Rogers and anyone who finds this via search. (I'm intentionally loading this post with keywords to get picked up by search).

The 89 - 93 Euro F3 195 Skiers have a rudder made by CW (not WC Rudder)

Many owners I've heard from, say their rudder binds and is very hard to turn when prop speed is high. I had this as well.

It can be fixed - it's not hard - the tank does not need to be removed. All of the parts are pictured at the top of this post.

Remove the whole rudder. I needed 2 9/16th box wrenches, a 9/16th socket wrench, a BIG slot screw driver and a hammer.

1. Remove the steering cable (one bolt and nut).

2. Remove the tiller bolt. Turn the rudder to convenient position (it will spin freely with the steering cable off). Convenient means you can get a wrench on either side of the bolt that goes through the tiller.

3. Remove the Tiller. Note - once you remove the tiller, the rudder will drop out the bottom. Make certain you have a rudder catcher outside the boat. Note the picture of the tiller at the top of this post. It has a slot cut in the back - put your big screwdriver in that slot, and top it a couple times with the hammer. This will spread the round opening just enough to slide it off the top post of the rudder. Remember to warn your rudder catcher.

4. Remove the rudder out the bottom of the boat. No rocket science here - it just slides out.

5. Remove the rudder stuffing box. 4 slot screw-head bolts and 4 nuts. May require a helper outside the boat. Use a 9/16th deep socket to remove the nuts from inside the boat. Push the bolts out through the bottom.

Once the 4 nuts and bolts are out, push and rock the stuffing box from inside the boat, down through the bottom and out. This takes some effort as the sealant they used is also adhesive.

Use a scraping razor to clean the adhesive from the bottom of the boat.

6. Remove the red sleeve from the metal stuffing box.

7. Take the red sleeve to the hardware store (a good hardware store). Find a close match for the 2 O rings on the outside and 2 on the inside.

You want the rubber protruding out from the plastic on both the outside and inside of the sleeve.

8. Hi quality thick Synthetic Grease the heck out of the whole thing. Inside the red insert, outside the red insert, inside the metal stuffing box, and the whole rudder shaft. Lots and lots of grease.

9. Put it back together. I used a big block of wood to gently persuade the red stuffing box insert back in the stuffing box. Not too much force needed - but a little. Lots of grease. Lots and lots of grease.

10. Put the rudder post through the red stuffing box packing sleeve. I used an O ring that is actually too big. My only choices were too big or too small - so I opted for too big. I had to cut the O ring with a razor knife to get the right diameter. Once I had it pressed in to the groove, it did not seem like enough room to slide the rudder post. Back to the big block of wood - and some force - and lots of synthetic grease. The rudder post went in.

11. Put the rudder back in. On the plate of the stuffing box that mates to the outside bottom of the boat, put on a very think bead of marine grade sealant/adhesive. I used 3M 4200. From the bottom of the boat, put the rudder (with the rudder post already in the stuffing box) up through the bottom. Insert 2 of the bolts diagonally from each other, have a helper start the nuts from inside the boat, and tighten them down.

12. Get the tiller arm back on. The bottom of the boat, and the tiller arm are the two surfaces that keep the rudder hanging in the right spot. So get the tiller arm on to lock the rudder in to place. Tap the screwdriver in the slot to expand circle, line up the screw hole, put the bolt through and thread the nut on.

13. Once the tiller arm is on and bolted, put the remaining 2 bolts through the bottom of the boat, fasten with the nuts and lock it down. Wipe away excess sealant.

With the new O Rings in place, the rudder should be tight - no tip or play. Mine is. Not a hard repair at all.

[JeffS]

Update - Repairing loose or leaking CW rudder on Skier Euro F3

Though my fix from late last summer worked just fine, the brittle old plastic eventually got a small crack due to the pressure of the 'o' rings. It didn't affect the steering at all - but it leaked to much for my liking.

So - revised fix.

I took the plastic pieces (and the rest of the rudder assembly) to a tool and die guy, and had replacements for the red plastic pieces machined out of brass. And had grease fittings threaded into the stuffing box.

I stopped at the shop today to make sure he was threading the grease fittings to the correct positions. Getting everything back tomorrow and will post pictures to complete the thread.

For anyone else that has a CW rudder that is either loose or leaking too much for your liking, I can get you in touch with the guy who machined my part. He did a great job and the whole thing only cost $160. Replacement rudder - $400 - $500. Have the part machined from scratch - $160. It's an awesome 100% fix. No shortcuts. He saved the exact dimensions for the CNC lathe - so he can pop this thing out again.

The brass is $45 - just to buy the slug. And he charged me $115 to do all the labor. NICE!

[Ndawg12]

Update - Repairing loose or leaking CW rudder on Skier Euro F3

Though my fix from late last summer worked just fine, the brittle old plastic eventually got a small crack due to the pressure of the 'o' rings. It didn't affect the steering at all - but it leaked to much for my liking.

So - revised fix.

I took the plastic pieces (and the rest of the rudder assembly) to a tool and die guy, and had replacements for the red plastic pieces machined out of brass. And had grease fittings threaded into the stuffing box.

I stopped at the shop today to make sure he was threading the grease fittings to the correct positions. Getting everything back tomorrow and will post pictures to complete the thread.

For anyone else that has a CW rudder that is either loose or leaking too much for your liking, I can get you in touch with the guy who machined my part. He did a great job and the whole thing only cost $160. Replacement rudder - $400 - $500. Have the part machined from scratch - $160. It's an awesome 100% fix. No shortcuts. He saved the exact dimensions for the CNC lathe - so he can pop this thing out again.

The brass is $45 - just to buy the slug. And he charged me $115 to do all the labor. NICE!

Great thread, great detail for that particular rudder type and also lots of good general info for all rudder repairs. Looking forward to your finished pics and how it performs.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Ndawg12