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TomMcCauley

Monsoon 320 Surge

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TomMcCauley

Hi all,

New to the forum. Have found much help here in the past. Thanks to all and what a great site. On to my problem.

I have a 1998 Response LX with a Monsoon 320hp engine. I have been having a surging problem for a while now and have tried some various things. The difference between what I'm experiencing and what I've found on this site is that I have no vapor lock or major bog or engine stall. What I have is an engine that starts fine and runs fine up until about 27- 28mph. Sorry I haven't noted the exact RPMs but I'd figure it's close to 2500 when I get the problem. At that point if I have a skier trying to ski 28mph (or just riding without a skier) I am at 27mph and then feathering the throttle up to get to 28. Only it doesn't respond. I feather up, feather up, feather up, and then all of the sudden it surges forward to 31 - 32mph. If I ease up on the throttle it drops back down to 28. I can't do anything to keep it inside 28mph - 32mph. I should add I have no speed control on it. I also hear a high pitched whine not all the time but as I accelerate forward, but not just at the sticking point, usually anytime I'm pulling the skier out of the water I hear it.

What I've done:

1. Replaced both fuel filters

2. Replaced Distributor Cap, Rotor and Plugs (but not wires, they were relatively new)

3. Emptied fuel tank, vacuumed, and refilled

4. Run injector cleaner through the tank on a few ocassions

5. Run Isopropyl Alcohol 91% at the suggestion of my mechanic a few times

6. Checked the fuel line best I could without removing the fuel tank to check for impingements

Nothing has improved the problem. Purchased the boat used in 2006 and probably had the problem all the time. Was mostly pulling tubers and wakeboarders so I never noticed the problem but I always recall the whine.

I've seen on these posts possibilities of a bad fuel pump, pinched gas line (my old Malibu distributor friend told me they had a problem with this for this model year). injectors, etc. I'm heading up this weekend to try to diagnose more and could use some help. I'm not particularly close to a Malibu dealer so I want to do what I can myself first. Suggestions I've seen for related problems are:

1. Check the fuel pressure (where do I hook this up? Can I pick up gauge at PepBoys, etc? Any special gauge to buy? What pressure do I want to be at?)

2. Have dealer check injectors

3. Remove tank and check fuel line for impingement (any benefit to this if pressure is fine?)

4. Check screen at fuel pump for debris (where is this screen and how do I remove it or clean it? Someone said something about inspection mirror...standard item at PepBoys?)

I'm no mechanic or even weekend mechanic, but am relatively handy and given good instructions can usually get the job done.

I'm planning on installing StarGazer this winter but figure it's a moot point until I get this problem fixed.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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WakeGirl

Locate the fuel pump & see if that's the source of the whine. If it is, it's almost certainly on its way out & the source of your problems. If it has a fuel pressure regulator (I think it does) that could be it as well, but since you mentioned that there is a whine, I'm going to say bad fuel pump.

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XTI04

Like wakegirl said check the pump. the screen is on the inlet side of the pump and can be carefully removed with a small screw driver. Hose it out with some brake cleaner and give it a try. It is possable you have a dead spot in the throttle position sensor.

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TomMcCauley
Like wakegirl said check the pump. the screen is on the inlet side of the pump and can be carefully removed with a small screw driver. Hose it out with some brake cleaner and give it a try. It is possable you have a dead spot in the throttle position sensor.

OK....will check it out. Where is the throttle position sensor and is this a dealer thing or is it easy enough to change?

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TomMcCauley

If it turns out I need a fuel pump, I've found one on skidim.com as well as ebasicpower.com.

Here's the two pumps:

http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/mm5/merchant.mv...gory_Code=ALL4C

and

http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RA080023

Should the one from ebasicpower.com work?

Are there any special watchouts or tips when replacing the fuel pump?

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skier92

Can you obtain speeds beyond 32 mph, and if so does it happen smoothly? If yes to both, I to would think a bad TPS (Throttle Position Sensor)

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TomMcCauley
Can you obtain speeds beyond 32 mph, and if so does it happen smoothly? If yes to both, I to would think a bad TPS (Throttle Position Sensor)

Yes it runs fine beyond 32mph. There's just a dead spot at 28 - 32 it seems. If it was a bad TPS, would I still have the fuel pump whining? Could a fuel pump be bad just in this limited rpm range?

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skier92

Clean the screen in the fuel pump inlet before concerning yourself with replacement. If it's clogged, the fuel pump is going to whine because it is fuel starved. No, I don't think the fuel issue would cause the narrow fault band your describing. I'm with XT104 that the TPS is the culprit.

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WakeGirl

Yeah, based on that last bit of info I think he's right. The fact that the pump is whining may be that it's not getting enough fuel, or it's on its way out. We may be talking about 2 totally separate issues.

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CTSunsetter

Tom-

Myself and another TMC member had the same problem you are describing and did everything mentioned here. Turned out to be greasy build up in the throttle body, probably from fogging oil.

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TomMcCauley
Tom-

Myself and another TMC member had the same problem you are describing and did everything mentioned here. Turned out to be greasy build up in the throttle body, probably from fogging oil.

Thanks...I found a post with a similar problem and he told me the same, and that once they cleaned the throttle body it cleared up. I'll add that to my list.

Thanks to all for the help. Hopefully this will fix my problem. Will report back after the weekend.

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SmoothWaterMan

The first thing I would do is to try to eliminate each variable by themselves. Fuel pumps whine because they are struggling, usually from fuel starvation and therefore sucking air, but can be from other issues as well. Hook up a fuel pressure gauge first, and go run it. If the pressure holds, from keyup through wide open, then you can eliminate the fuel supply issue. My bet is that your pressure will be either low or high. Neither will allow it to run well. As mentioned by others, you have a regulator, an inlet screen, feed lines, filters, and pickup lines that all can relate to low pressure or flow.

Sometimes the shotgun effect to diagnosing and repairing an engine run issue will simply delay or misdirect the fix.

Peter

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TomMcCauley
The first thing I would do is to try to eliminate each variable by themselves. Fuel pumps whine because they are struggling, usually from fuel starvation and therefore sucking air, but can be from other issues as well. Hook up a fuel pressure gauge first, and go run it. If the pressure holds, from keyup through wide open, then you can eliminate the fuel supply issue. My bet is that your pressure will be either low or high. Neither will allow it to run well. As mentioned by others, you have a regulator, an inlet screen, feed lines, filters, and pickup lines that all can relate to low pressure or flow.

Sometimes the shotgun effect to diagnosing and repairing an engine run issue will simply delay or misdirect the fix.

Peter

Great advice....thanks! what pressure should I be looking for?

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TomMcCauley
Tom-

Myself and another TMC member had the same problem you are describing and did everything mentioned here. Turned out to be greasy build up in the throttle body, probably from fogging oil.

Anyone have a service manual for this engine (Monsoon 320) that would give specs for how much to torque down the throttle body upon putting it back on?

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TomMcCauley
Hi all,

New to the forum. Have found much help here in the past. Thanks to all and what a great site. On to my problem.

I have a 1998 Response LX with a Monsoon 320hp engine. I have been having a surging problem for a while now and have tried some various things. The difference between what I'm experiencing and what I've found on this site is that I have no vapor lock or major bog or engine stall. What I have is an engine that starts fine and runs fine up until about 27- 28mph. Sorry I haven't noted the exact RPMs but I'd figure it's close to 2500 when I get the problem. At that point if I have a skier trying to ski 28mph (or just riding without a skier) I am at 27mph and then feathering the throttle up to get to 28. Only it doesn't respond. I feather up, feather up, feather up, and then all of the sudden it surges forward to 31 - 32mph. If I ease up on the throttle it drops back down to 28. I can't do anything to keep it inside 28mph - 32mph. I should add I have no speed control on it. I also hear a high pitched whine not all the time but as I accelerate forward, but not just at the sticking point, usually anytime I'm pulling the skier out of the water I hear it.

What I've done:

1. Replaced both fuel filters

2. Replaced Distributor Cap, Rotor and Plugs (but not wires, they were relatively new)

3. Emptied fuel tank, vacuumed, and refilled

4. Run injector cleaner through the tank on a few ocassions

5. Run Isopropyl Alcohol 91% at the suggestion of my mechanic a few times

6. Checked the fuel line best I could without removing the fuel tank to check for impingements

Nothing has improved the problem. Purchased the boat used in 2006 and probably had the problem all the time. Was mostly pulling tubers and wakeboarders so I never noticed the problem but I always recall the whine.

I've seen on these posts possibilities of a bad fuel pump, pinched gas line (my old Malibu distributor friend told me they had a problem with this for this model year). injectors, etc. I'm heading up this weekend to try to diagnose more and could use some help. I'm not particularly close to a Malibu dealer so I want to do what I can myself first. Suggestions I've seen for related problems are:

1. Check the fuel pressure (where do I hook this up? Can I pick up gauge at PepBoys, etc? Any special gauge to buy? What pressure do I want to be at?)

2. Have dealer check injectors

3. Remove tank and check fuel line for impingement (any benefit to this if pressure is fine?)

4. Check screen at fuel pump for debris (where is this screen and how do I remove it or clean it? Someone said something about inspection mirror...standard item at PepBoys?)

I'm no mechanic or even weekend mechanic, but am relatively handy and given good instructions can usually get the job done.

I'm planning on installing StarGazer this winter but figure it's a moot point until I get this problem fixed.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks everyone for your great help! As it turns out, it was what has happened to a few others...the throttle body needed to be cleaned. A good cleaning and I put it back on and it's running great! I still have the whine from the fuel pump so I need to diagnose whether that's some debris, pressure problem, or maybe just the start of the pump dying. But I'm back in business and now can add that StarGazer this winter knowing this won't be a problem.

Thanks again!

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Baddog
Hi all,

New to the forum. Have found much help here in the past. Thanks to all and what a great site. On to my problem.

I have a 1998 Response LX with a Monsoon 320hp engine. I have been having a surging problem for a while now and have tried some various things. The difference between what I'm experiencing and what I've found on this site is that I have no vapor lock or major bog or engine stall. What I have is an engine that starts fine and runs fine up until about 27- 28mph. Sorry I haven't noted the exact RPMs but I'd figure it's close to 2500 when I get the problem. At that point if I have a skier trying to ski 28mph (or just riding without a skier) I am at 27mph and then feathering the throttle up to get to 28. Only it doesn't respond. I feather up, feather up, feather up, and then all of the sudden it surges forward to 31 - 32mph. If I ease up on the throttle it drops back down to 28. I can't do anything to keep it inside 28mph - 32mph. I should add I have no speed control on it. I also hear a high pitched whine not all the time but as I accelerate forward, but not just at the sticking point, usually anytime I'm pulling the skier out of the water I hear it.

What I've done:

1. Replaced both fuel filters

2. Replaced Distributor Cap, Rotor and Plugs (but not wires, they were relatively new)

3. Emptied fuel tank, vacuumed, and refilled

4. Run injector cleaner through the tank on a few ocassions

5. Run Isopropyl Alcohol 91% at the suggestion of my mechanic a few times

6. Checked the fuel line best I could without removing the fuel tank to check for impingements

Nothing has improved the problem. Purchased the boat used in 2006 and probably had the problem all the time. Was mostly pulling tubers and wakeboarders so I never noticed the problem but I always recall the whine.

I've seen on these posts possibilities of a bad fuel pump, pinched gas line (my old Malibu distributor friend told me they had a problem with this for this model year). injectors, etc. I'm heading up this weekend to try to diagnose more and could use some help. I'm not particularly close to a Malibu dealer so I want to do what I can myself first. Suggestions I've seen for related problems are:

1. Check the fuel pressure (where do I hook this up? Can I pick up gauge at PepBoys, etc? Any special gauge to buy? What pressure do I want to be at?)

2. Have dealer check injectors

3. Remove tank and check fuel line for impingement (any benefit to this if pressure is fine?)

4. Check screen at fuel pump for debris (where is this screen and how do I remove it or clean it? Someone said something about inspection mirror...standard item at PepBoys?)

I'm no mechanic or even weekend mechanic, but am relatively handy and given good instructions can usually get the job done.

I'm planning on installing StarGazer this winter but figure it's a moot point until I get this problem fixed.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks everyone for your great help! As it turns out, it was what has happened to a few others...the throttle body needed to be cleaned. A good cleaning and I put it back on and it's running great! I still have the whine from the fuel pump so I need to diagnose whether that's some debris, pressure problem, or maybe just the start of the pump dying. But I'm back in business and now can add that StarGazer this winter knowing this won't be a problem.

Thanks again!

Was this just a surface clean or did you disassemble it?

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TomMcCauley
Hi all,

New to the forum. Have found much help here in the past. Thanks to all and what a great site. On to my problem.

I have a 1998 Response LX with a Monsoon 320hp engine. I have been having a surging problem for a while now and have tried some various things. The difference between what I'm experiencing and what I've found on this site is that I have no vapor lock or major bog or engine stall. What I have is an engine that starts fine and runs fine up until about 27- 28mph. Sorry I haven't noted the exact RPMs but I'd figure it's close to 2500 when I get the problem. At that point if I have a skier trying to ski 28mph (or just riding without a skier) I am at 27mph and then feathering the throttle up to get to 28. Only it doesn't respond. I feather up, feather up, feather up, and then all of the sudden it surges forward to 31 - 32mph. If I ease up on the throttle it drops back down to 28. I can't do anything to keep it inside 28mph - 32mph. I should add I have no speed control on it. I also hear a high pitched whine not all the time but as I accelerate forward, but not just at the sticking point, usually anytime I'm pulling the skier out of the water I hear it.

What I've done:

1. Replaced both fuel filters

2. Replaced Distributor Cap, Rotor and Plugs (but not wires, they were relatively new)

3. Emptied fuel tank, vacuumed, and refilled

4. Run injector cleaner through the tank on a few ocassions

5. Run Isopropyl Alcohol 91% at the suggestion of my mechanic a few times

6. Checked the fuel line best I could without removing the fuel tank to check for impingements

Nothing has improved the problem. Purchased the boat used in 2006 and probably had the problem all the time. Was mostly pulling tubers and wakeboarders so I never noticed the problem but I always recall the whine.

I've seen on these posts possibilities of a bad fuel pump, pinched gas line (my old Malibu distributor friend told me they had a problem with this for this model year). injectors, etc. I'm heading up this weekend to try to diagnose more and could use some help. I'm not particularly close to a Malibu dealer so I want to do what I can myself first. Suggestions I've seen for related problems are:

1. Check the fuel pressure (where do I hook this up? Can I pick up gauge at PepBoys, etc? Any special gauge to buy? What pressure do I want to be at?)

2. Have dealer check injectors

3. Remove tank and check fuel line for impingement (any benefit to this if pressure is fine?)

4. Check screen at fuel pump for debris (where is this screen and how do I remove it or clean it? Someone said something about inspection mirror...standard item at PepBoys?)

I'm no mechanic or even weekend mechanic, but am relatively handy and given good instructions can usually get the job done.

I'm planning on installing StarGazer this winter but figure it's a moot point until I get this problem fixed.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks everyone for your great help! As it turns out, it was what has happened to a few others...the throttle body needed to be cleaned. A good cleaning and I put it back on and it's running great! I still have the whine from the fuel pump so I need to diagnose whether that's some debris, pressure problem, or maybe just the start of the pump dying. But I'm back in business and now can add that StarGazer this winter knowing this won't be a problem.

Thanks again!

Was this just a surface clean or did you disassemble it?

I disassembled....not doing this on a regular basis I was a little nervous as to what I was getting into, but it was a piece of cake. And even after a few fuel system cleaner additives it was very dirty. All was well until I got on the water and discovered when I was ready to start my post-cleaning test that I could not accelerate past idle....had forgotten to reconnect the throttle linkage! Rookie mistake. This was such an easy fix I was in and out in about an hour.

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TomMcCauley
Hi all,

New to the forum. Have found much help here in the past. Thanks to all and what a great site. On to my problem.

I have a 1998 Response LX with a Monsoon 320hp engine. I have been having a surging problem for a while now and have tried some various things. The difference between what I'm experiencing and what I've found on this site is that I have no vapor lock or major bog or engine stall. What I have is an engine that starts fine and runs fine up until about 27- 28mph. Sorry I haven't noted the exact RPMs but I'd figure it's close to 2500 when I get the problem. At that point if I have a skier trying to ski 28mph (or just riding without a skier) I am at 27mph and then feathering the throttle up to get to 28. Only it doesn't respond. I feather up, feather up, feather up, and then all of the sudden it surges forward to 31 - 32mph. If I ease up on the throttle it drops back down to 28. I can't do anything to keep it inside 28mph - 32mph. I should add I have no speed control on it. I also hear a high pitched whine not all the time but as I accelerate forward, but not just at the sticking point, usually anytime I'm pulling the skier out of the water I hear it.

What I've done:

1. Replaced both fuel filters

2. Replaced Distributor Cap, Rotor and Plugs (but not wires, they were relatively new)

3. Emptied fuel tank, vacuumed, and refilled

4. Run injector cleaner through the tank on a few ocassions

5. Run Isopropyl Alcohol 91% at the suggestion of my mechanic a few times

6. Checked the fuel line best I could without removing the fuel tank to check for impingements

Nothing has improved the problem. Purchased the boat used in 2006 and probably had the problem all the time. Was mostly pulling tubers and wakeboarders so I never noticed the problem but I always recall the whine.

I've seen on these posts possibilities of a bad fuel pump, pinched gas line (my old Malibu distributor friend told me they had a problem with this for this model year). injectors, etc. I'm heading up this weekend to try to diagnose more and could use some help. I'm not particularly close to a Malibu dealer so I want to do what I can myself first. Suggestions I've seen for related problems are:

1. Check the fuel pressure (where do I hook this up? Can I pick up gauge at PepBoys, etc? Any special gauge to buy? What pressure do I want to be at?)

2. Have dealer check injectors

3. Remove tank and check fuel line for impingement (any benefit to this if pressure is fine?)

4. Check screen at fuel pump for debris (where is this screen and how do I remove it or clean it? Someone said something about inspection mirror...standard item at PepBoys?)

I'm no mechanic or even weekend mechanic, but am relatively handy and given good instructions can usually get the job done.

I'm planning on installing StarGazer this winter but figure it's a moot point until I get this problem fixed.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks everyone for your great help! As it turns out, it was what has happened to a few others...the throttle body needed to be cleaned. A good cleaning and I put it back on and it's running great! I still have the whine from the fuel pump so I need to diagnose whether that's some debris, pressure problem, or maybe just the start of the pump dying. But I'm back in business and now can add that StarGazer this winter knowing this won't be a problem.

Thanks again!

Was this just a surface clean or did you disassemble it?

I disassembled....not doing this on a regular basis I was a little nervous as to what I was getting into, but it was a piece of cake. And even after a few fuel system cleaner additives it was very dirty. All was well until I got on the water and discovered when I was ready to start my post-cleaning test that I could not accelerate past idle....had forgotten to reconnect the throttle linkage! Rookie mistake. This was such an easy fix I was in and out in about an hour.

Well, I'm going to add a frustrating addition to the story. Truly, everything was working fine after the clean. Today, I installed the PerfectPass and after testing I turned it off and started to head home and guess what???? surging again. Now, I'm having difficulty assimilating this....for sure it had nothing to do with the PP as it was off at the time, and it happened at the exact same speed as before. Outside of removing the air cleaner I didn't touch the throttle body. I looked in it after all this mess and it appears clean. So maybe my cleaning of the throttle body was just coincidental? Hard to believe but I've got the same problem again. So now I'm stuck trying to diagnose again if it's the TPS, the fuel pump, etc. ARGH! I haven't tested the PP in that range yet as I ran out of time (we have a crappy 6pm no wake rule) but it will be interesting to see if the perfect pass will manage it at 29mph, 30mph, etc. without surging. That will tell me something anyway.

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Bake's Marine

I bet its your Throttle position sensor, you had to un-plug it to clean your throttle body most likely right? Which would have re-set that sensor and I bet it's tweaking out again.

You have one of these two TPS sensors

http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1410

http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1411

The only way to really figure out if it is going bad is to watch the data on the computer and see if it is changing when not moving the throttle. I've seen this do it at Bake's and I've also seen fuel delivery issues (pump, injectors, etc) so it could be either or. The sensor is a lot less expensive so you could try that route first.

Good luck getting the surging gone.

Paul

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TomMcCauley
I bet its your Throttle position sensor, you had to un-plug it to clean your throttle body most likely right? Which would have re-set that sensor and I bet it's tweaking out again.

You have one of these two TPS sensors

http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1410

http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1411

The only way to really figure out if it is going bad is to watch the data on the computer and see if it is changing when not moving the throttle. I've seen this do it at Bake's and I've also seen fuel delivery issues (pump, injectors, etc) so it could be either or. The sensor is a lot less expensive so you could try that route first.

Good luck getting the surging gone.

Paul

Here's the next, and hopefully final, chapter in this saga. Was explaining this to the head mechanic at my dealer (obviously NOT the guy who worked on it the first time). After describing the symptoms, he immediately asked me what fuel crossovers looked like...if they were all steel or steel with a rubber section in the middle. I told him all steel. He told me that was my problem. Explained why and there's no way I could try to re-explain what he said. Anyway, something to do with the compression of the fuel. So I swapped out the two crossovers and voila, the problem went away. Let's hope it stays away this time. He said it the old crossovers caused a problem at mid-range speeds. So I'm posting this in case someone else has this issue. I don't have a picture of the old crossovers, but I'm posting a link to a picture that I found on another website regarding how to install my perfectpass. Note that this is what the new crossovers should look like. This is the 98 Response with the Monsoon II engine also, so I'm guessing he/she replaced the crossovers at some point too. There's even a sticker on them like it's a part number sticker.

ppass13.jpg

Edited by TomMcCauley

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Kelvin

I was one of the first to ever have this problem on my 1998 Response LX. For me, it would happen between 36 and 40 mph. With a single person in the boat, I could pull a skier at 36 mph using perfect pass and no problems, but with 3 people in the boat, it needed just a few more rpms and the boat would surge big time. Took the dealer a couple of months to figure it out. During one of the test of the fuel pump, we hooked up a pressure gauge to the fuel railes on the engine and ran the boat - it never did have the issue. The rubber hoses on the pressure gauge provided just enough dampening to fix the issue. Once the problem was identified, the new crossover tubes with the rubber insert fixed the problem.

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electricjohn

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