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Non-engine protected ballast pump in locker


dirtysparks

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I've been digging through the ballast forum all day. I'm wondering if it's safe to have a simer or attwood pump mounted under the rear seats of a VLX. The rear seats have open space back to the rear lockers which then have a divider separating it from the engine compartment. Am I safe without an ignition protected pump in this location or can vapors seep through the cracks and potentially go boom?

If it might go boom, I need to find a new place to mount rear pumps. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

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I've seen a pic. of a person who put pumps and a manifold under the back seat behind the driver. I think you have a square area there about 15" x 15" right? That would be pretty sealed off for me, I wouldn't mind having pumps there.

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I've seen a pic. of a person who put pumps and a manifold under the back seat behind the driver. I think you have a square area there about 15" x 15" right? That would be pretty sealed off for me, I wouldn't mind having pumps there.

If I'm reading your post correctly, I've just got an open space there...I was thinking more along the lines of under the back seat on either side of the vdrive.

a6eb_3.jpg

Edited by dirtysparks
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Yeah,

Isn't there a nice square storage area under the seat here...?

Yes there is, and on the opposite side as well. I thought you were talking about directly behind the driver's seat, as if the seating wrapped all the way around to the captain's chair. That area is basically an extension of the locker and I'm hoping fumes wouldn't be able to get there. I always run the blower anyway, so hopefully I'd be ok. Thanks for the input~

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I think you'll be fine with pumps in there. That area is at floor level not, bilge level. The issue is that fuel vapors are heavier than air and will settle on the bottom of the engine area. Also, that box is pretty sealed on all 4 sides. Mine has a wall between it and the locker area unlike the other side.

I think this is the thread with the fancy manifold set up I saw awhile ago. Obviously the pictures are gone but, Cervelo is still on this site a lot; maybe drop him a line to see the pics. of his set up.

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Aerator style pumps (like the Attwood Tsunami series, or the factory Piranha pumps) have a sealed motor cartridge, and are therefore ignition protected by design. Simer brand impeller pumps have an open winding/rotor motor, which is what causes problems. Realistically, with EFI engines in today's boats, you probably don't need to worry about ignition protected pumps (for the same reason that you probably don't need to worry about running the blower before started). BUT, is it really worth the risk?

If it's strictly a cost related issue and you can't justify spending the extra money on the Jabsco pumps, use aerators instead. They're faster, smaller, use less power, and two of them will cost the same as one Simer. Sure, you'll have some additional plumbing considerations, but overall the difference in cost will be minimal, and you'll have the piece of mind that nothing is going to happen if you do have a fuel leak.

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Aerator style pumps (like the Attwood Tsunami series, or the factory Piranha pumps) have a sealed motor cartridge, and are therefore ignition protected by design. Simer brand impeller pumps have an open winding/rotor motor, which is what causes problems. Realistically, with EFI engines in today's boats, you probably don't need to worry about ignition protected pumps (for the same reason that you probably don't need to worry about running the blower before started). BUT, is it really worth the risk?

If it's strictly a cost related issue and you can't justify spending the extra money on the Jabsco pumps, use aerators instead. They're faster, smaller, use less power, and two of them will cost the same as one Simer. Sure, you'll have some additional plumbing considerations, but overall the difference in cost will be minimal, and you'll have the piece of mind that nothing is going to happen if you do have a fuel leak.

Thanks for the great information, I guess I was under the impression that the aerator style pumps weren't ignition protected. I don't mind the additional plumbing, and I like the fact that they draw less than the simers. Only downside I see is the the sacs may fill underway if I don't have the shutoff valve closed. That's how the factory MLS in mine works anyway. I think I'll do the Tsunami 800s with the 3/4 inlet, does anyone have a recommendation for a thru hull pickup and shutoff valve? The only one I was on wake makers was the 11/2 scooper. I'd like to go with a non scoop style.

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Anyone have experience with these?

http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1219

They look a little strange, I've never see a thru hull that requires screws. Most are threaded on the outside with a nut sandwiching it on the inside of the hull. I'd rather put on nice clean hole in the boat instead of having to seal an additional 4 screw holes....

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Skicrave & 99response helped me out tremendously with this (see here). Because you usually have to cut the threaded part of the thru hull based on the thickness of your hull, 99% of all thru hulls have straight threads rather than tapered. I couldn't find any shut-off valves with straight threads. Certainly, not one with straight threads on the inlet and tapered on the outlet. I was pointed to Marine Hardware as they have thru hulls with threads that transition from straight to tapered at the end so that you can use tapered shut-off valves. They worked perfectly!

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Aerator pumps are ignition protected by design (they don't have an exposed coil/rotor motor). That's why they can be used in the bilge (as in bilge pumps, or factory ballast pumps).

Which thru-hull you use will depend on how many bags you're filling, if you're only going to connect one or two bags you can use a standard garboard drain (like the one linked to above), you may even have a spare one in your boat for a bilge plug you're not using.

If you're filling 2 large bags, or 3 or more, I would recommend a larger diameter intake to make sure you have enough capacity to feed all of your pumps.

Shoot me an email with your bag setup and I'll put together a parts list for you.

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Aerator pumps are ignition protected by design (they don't have an exposed coil/rotor motor). That's why they can be used in the bilge (as in bilge pumps, or factory ballast pumps).

Which thru-hull you use will depend on how many bags you're filling, if you're only going to connect one or two bags you can use a standard garboard drain (like the one linked to above), you may even have a spare one in your boat for a bilge plug you're not using.

If you're filling 2 large bags, or 3 or more, I would recommend a larger diameter intake to make sure you have enough capacity to feed all of your pumps.

Shoot me an email with your bag setup and I'll put together a parts list for you.

Thanks for the offer! I ordered the thru-hulls from bakes that I linked to above, just because they'll attach right to the shutoffs that they sell. I looked at the factory mls pickup on my boat and they're using the same garboard drains for the thru-hull. If I get them and decide to go a different route I can always send them back - figured if they're good enough for malibu to use factory, they're good enough for me. I've got 2 flyhigh 750s for the rear lockers.

So far I've ordered:

Bakes:

2 3/4 inch garboards http://bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1219

2 3/4 inch shutoffs http://bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1220

2 stainless drains http://bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1106

2 contura dash switches and covers

Wakemakers

Fly High Standard Pump Quick Twist Connector W732 w732 2

Fly High 3/4" Straight Flow-Rite Quick Release Connector W740 w740 2

Fly High 3/4" Flow-Rite Quick Release Connect W736 w736 2

Attwood Tsunami 800 GPH Ballast Pump att-t800 4

Plumbingsupply.com

2 3/4 inch swing check valves

I think that's everything...Now all I need is to find a 90 degree male to female 3/4 elbow from the garboard to the shutoff, wiring, and tube.

Edited by dirtysparks
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Thanks for the offer! I ordered the thru-hulls from bakes that I linked to above, just because they'll attach right to the shutoffs that they sell. I looked at the factory mls pickup on my boat and they're using the same garboard drains for the thru-hull. If I get them and decide to go a different route I can always send them back - figured if they're good enough for malibu to use factory, they're good enough for me. I've got 2 flyhigh 750s for the rear lockers.

So far I've ordered:

Bakes:

2 3/4 inch garboards http://bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1219

2 3/4 inch shutoffs http://bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1220

2 stainless drains http://bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1106

2 contura dash switches and covers

Wakemakers

Fly High Standard Pump Quick Twist Connector W732 w732 2

Fly High 3/4" Straight Flow-Rite Quick Release Connector W740 w740 2

Fly High 3/4" Flow-Rite Quick Release Connect W736 w736 2

Attwood Tsunami 800 GPH Ballast Pump att-t800 4

Plumbingsupply.com

2 3/4 inch swing check valves

I think that's everything...Now all I need is to find a 90 degree male to female 3/4 elbow from the garboard to the shutoff, wiring, and tube.

Looks good, I assume you ordered the 732s to be able to remove the drain pumps easily. That's not a very secure connection, it only takes a quarter turn to remove that connector, so just monitor it. I can send over a parts list to use Flow-Rite Quick Connect/Connectors for the pumps if you decide to make it a little more secure.

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Indeed, that's why I ordered the 732s, but I'd certainly look at a parts list or accept any advice. Do the 732s leak at all? How would you make it more secure? Can't the 800 tsunamis just screw directly into the fly high fitting or is there a different way to connect it?

Thanks again~

Edited by dirtysparks
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The 732's don't leak, they have an o-ring like all of the other fittings to prevent that, but they're really not designed to make a secure permanent connection. Because of that, and especially in a drain application where the fitting will be on its side, it only takes an impact from a wake, or some gear on the hose to rotate the pump body the 90 degrees that is required to remove the 732 from the Quick Twist Adapter on the sac. That's not going to happen in the 5 minutes it takes to manually fill and drain the bags, but if you going to leave them connected all of the time you can see where the pump could come out while the bag is full and you wouldn't know about it until everything in your local was wet because all of the water drained out.

The likelihood of that happening is probably pretty small, but it would still be a pain. T800 pumps will screw right into the bag, but it's a pain to remove them for cleaning or winterization because you either end up with a really twisted wiring harness (from unthreading the pump with the wires connected), or you have to implement some quick release connection for the wiring and disconnect the hose every time.

We include the following adapter in our TankBuster line of OEM Upgrade Kits to solve these problems:

T800 Pump -> W745 -> 4" long 3/4" hose -> W740.

That allows you to easily disconnect the pump using the Flow-rite fittings, while also ensuring you have a secure water tight connection that won't come undone.

Contact us if you would like to return the W732, it may not be worth it to pay to ship them back, but it's an option.

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Do I need a 736 on the bag to connect the 740 to or is it able to connect to the factory 730?

I may pick up those parts, that does sound more secure. I'm sure I'll just keep the 732s, I've got other bags I could probably find a use for.

Thanks!

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Yes, sorry you do need a 736 on the bag anytime you need use a 740 (or 742). Also, remember to add a couple of hose clamps to your list as well to secure the short piece of hose to the barbs on each fittings.

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Yes, sorry you do need a 736 on the bag anytime you need use a 740 (or 742). Also, remember to add a couple of hose clamps to your list as well to secure the short piece of hose to the barbs on each fittings.

Looks good, I'll probably order that stuff today.

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Ok, so I ordered the garboard drains from bakes to use as the thru-hull. It didn't come with screws, does anyone know what length of screw I want to use with these? I'm going stainless obviously, and I don't think I want them long enough to come through into the bilge. Looking at the factory MLS intake, the screws don't come all the way through, and it doesn't seem as secure as the mushroom thru-hulls.

Eh...I may just try pick up some mushroom thru-hulls instead.

Edited by dirtysparks
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