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Skisix could not be more correct


martho

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I was starting to get the impression that the topic was getting warmer and was starting to think of an exit strategy since the topic title bears my name. If you guys are feeling good about it and are learning, I will continue to repsond.

I am fully aware that I can go from hero to zero in one or two posts though- I don't want that to happen.

It would be nice to have somplace to post multiple pictures in a strip and mark them up to demonstrate different points and ideas. I'll work on that one.

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I am aware of my position issues. I dont think I want someone to have access to a marker and my picture. Its kinda like the red pen in high school. If there is minimal red pen, you know you have done well. However, I probably wont even be able to see myself anymore with all the red pen on these position pictures. ROFL.gif

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Will someone else please put some pix up so we can have something to compare?

I think it would be great to more people in the mix as we all stand to learn. There were dozens of people interested in Skisix's clinics. There should be dozens of people with photos for us to review and from which to potentially learn.

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Let me suggest caution with getting too far "neutral" on a "tail riding ski". When I get to pressing the front of a Monza I get a free E-TICKET. That ski wants to be riden there and snaps the turn as opposed to arcing around.

Leaning back on the ski just gets you tired, lean away form the boat instead and push through the ski against the water with both feet evenly.

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I'm sorry, I can see where that would be confusing. I made that satement referring to when you are turning. You wil get thrown OTF if your center or go forward with your weight as soon as you start turning. In contrast, your X5 will tolerate that and reward you with sharp turn while staying in front of you. Thru the wakes keep pushing evenly with both legs.

Here's a test that you may not want to try. Without going too hard, let go of the rope inbetween the wakes. Which way would you fall. In the one picture of Martho I think he might fall backwards and not off to the side.

Let me suggest caution with getting too far "neutral" on a "tail riding ski".  When I get to pressing the front of a Monza I get a free E-TICKET.  That ski wants to be riden there and snaps the turn as opposed to arcing around.

Leaning back on the ski just gets you tired, lean away form the boat instead and push through the ski against the water with both feet evenly.

I'm confused by that. The 1st sentence says ski on the back and the last one says with weight on both feet evenly.

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If you're in the correct position you should pile drive the wakes with your side closest to the water and then your other side will quickly rotate around and slam the rest of you in the water. All this takes place in about 3 feet. I've never purposely let go of the rope there but have had several ropes break there on me. I don't know which is worse, my hands slaming into my abs or the deceleration the quickly follows when hit the water. Either way, all three times it's ended in my ski buddies pulling me onto the swim plateform while I deperately try to get some breath back.

Yaaaaaa...... well.......I don't think I'm going to take up on that one. If I let go of the rope, the ski would fly up out from under me in a massive wheelie and I'd land on my back. Not all the time, but if I'm tired or not thinking that's what would happen.
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Question about all of this: Since these are still frames instead of video, isn't it possible that a ton of cross-course speed is generated, but the the brakes get slammed on hard (not keeping direction, too much weight up front, wing angle, etc) approaching the turn? I know that some of my otf's at the ball are from poor body position (bent over) causing the ski to stall and sink.

Also - GT, I think you've learned more about fin adjustment in one season than many of us ever learn.

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After reading the text in the picture.....

My opinion is that you will get much more affect(ski tip down and pointed more across course) by bringing you hips and handle closer together, which means that you need to drive your elbows into your body. In your picture you top half is leading and to keep you center of gravity such that you don' thead butt the water, you hips start dropping back. When your hips drop back the ski tip rises.

The snap shot in time doesn't tell the whole story, if you are pressing on the ski evenly, the instant the boat does pick you up the tip will come down and you'll be fine. I have lot's of picture where the tip rose a little right as I was finishing the turn. The part that matters at this point is when the load comes on- what position are in then.

I have very few stills of me skiing, especially on this computer, but this one is very indicitive of my off-side. My on side is very natural and I don't belabor it. Biggest problem there is trying to get all my speed in the first 15 feet after rounding the ball. Not sustainable, a lot of effort for no speed gained. All I get for that is pushing a bunch of water. Here is a typical off side set.
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Martho,

Congrats on the progress. Clap.gifRockon.gifYahoo.gif I’m glad it is working out. Skisix has some great advice. This post is kinda long, but maybe you or somebody else fighting my same battles will get something from it. I also went out with GT yesterday and played around on the Charger. I don’t think I willing to drop back to a comp free ride ski. I didn’t like the fact that I had to make the ski do things. I like a ski that wants to. That being said, I wrote down some things that may or my not help you on your S8. These are things that have helped me tremendously this year, and by your pictures and dialogue, I think we are pretty much the same level and similar body structure.

I have been watching this progress, and really trying to analyze your pics. Many of them look very similar to older pics of me and some new. I have to agree with GT on your offside. If you are breaking at the waist on you offside consistently (like in you pictures), there is a textbook fin adjustment for that. I did that a lot a few years ago, and that tiny adjustment fixed it right up. As far as the rest goes, I will be the first to admit I don’t get near as technical as GT ad Skisix, so maybe this will make more sense to you or some others.

Your skiing on the S8 could get really good with some very minor adjustments that I am working on as well. I don’t think the Burner will help with them, because unlike the S8, or X5, or whatever high performance ski, the burner will make you force the turns. The High performance skis will do a tremendous amount of the work for you if your form is correct. What I see is your hips down in the turns, which puts you further back on the ski causing it to slow down or stall, as well as have to pull them back up to have good form for you wake crossings. This point and this point alone has been my sole emphasis since going to Cobles. April and Daniel picked up on this quickly with me. They had me exaggerate my hips up in the turns. When you do that the ski will do what is made to do. It will maintain speed, and it will bite on the forward bevels where they are made to bite and turn. The ski will come right around on it’s own and face cross course. Then on the pick up you hips will already be up and ready for the crossing. All you have to do is jam you elbows in and lean over. (easier said than done) When your hips are down through the turns you have to make a major body adjustment to have good form to go cross course. Usually you can’t make the adjustment fast enough before the pickup and the ski is now pointing at the boat and you arms are away from you body. At this point your not getting it back, so like many of us we really rip on it and all it causes the ski to do is plow into the water on the back and we lose a tremendous amount down course. This was the continuation of the first lesson from the folks at Cobles. Exaggerate the hips up on the crossings. This spreads the weight out evenly across the ski, which prevents plowing and generates all the speed the ski was made for. Andy Mapple describes this as doing squats one legged. You get much more power and balance using both legs. By your pictures, it looks like you are coming out of the turn, getting picked up, and ripping it on the back of the ski. If you hips are up and you rip it, you will get some awesome acceleration. You will also go through fewer pairs of gloves. Playing tug a war with the boat really tears up gloves.

My experience with skis:

With a comp free ride ski, I can have great form or I can have really bad form, but I have to brute force the ski to make things happen.

With high performance skis, they are spectacular performers with good form, but will only punish us with bad form.

So, If we have the right set up(not set up to make up for our bad form) and work on our form our performance will only continue to get better

Cheers.gif

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Wow!!!

I go to the park with the family and dog, come back and there are tons of new posts!

Very cool!

However, still no pix of anyone else??????? Com'on peeps, show us your pix!

Edited by martho
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How about this guy? He looks like a rookie. Is that a wide ride? There are so many form mistakes I just don't know where to start ROFL.gifROFL.gifROFL.gif

FOTOSlalomMapple%20Andy.jpg

Edited by martho
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If Martho is having fun on his big ski and he feels like he's making the improvements he wants to make, more power to him! We are all agreeing that the bigger ski provides more lift and carries more speed, and by definition would also carry that speed through the turn. The down side is that it's not going to turn on a dime.

At 32-34mph and 15-22 off, I contend that a skier doen't need to turn on a dime. If that skier is having to turn on a dime to complete the course, that skier isn't skiing technically correct. There have been all sorts of pictures of Wade and Terry and such throwing big spray off their ski during or at the finish of a turn, highlighting where the water is breaking and the position they are in. I also contend that unless you are at 35 or shorter, you won't be generating the speeds and angles to the boat/course to throw that big of spray and to have the ski biting that hard. I've thought "how nice it would've been to throw some pictures of me up during this thread to demonstrate the fundemental techniques but, I'm glad I didn't because I start at 28 and go shorter from there that's not the premise of this discussion. When I'm running 28 well, I don't go fast and I don't throw a big spray off the edge of my ski.

The big ski will teach a skier what to do with speed after the second wake and how to drive the ski to make a turn. When Martho has gotten to 28 off at 34mph he will have learned the after second wake techniques required to get into and through 32off with a ski like the S8. When he gets to that point he will have learned to position himself on the ski well enough to get the angles he needs to make the next ball and m,ake another turn.

By contrast, I learned on the HO extreme and limited and PSX. I learned that I had to have good position to take the hit from the boat after the ski shut down during the turn. I learned to muscle my way into good position while crossing the wakes. I learned that I could edge change and release at the same time(because the ski would slow down enough) or worse, I learned to pull like hell out of the ball and then let up right behind the boat and glide toward to bouy to maintain my width and then had to make a big snappy turn.

I've now spent the better part of three years unlearning those techniques becuase they don't work for 38 and 39. I don't posses the strength to hang onto a big snappy turn at 38. I can and usually do generate too much speed to edge change and release at the same time(this is directly followed by a big snappy turn).

I've been where you guys are and I survived it, you will too and you'll have tons of fun between now and 32 off. That sounds kind of preachy- time for me to stop.

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Sorry, Martho, no pics. I don't have a crew with the camera skills that you do. I am very interested in this thread and am trying to learn all that I can. Six, please don't stop posting. This thread has been great.

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How about this guy?  He looks like a rookie.  Is that a wide ride?  There are so many form mistakes I just don't know where to start  ROFL.gif  ROFL.gif  ROFL.gif

FOTOSlalomMapple%20Andy.jpg

If you look at Andy in that picture and then look at my avatar there's hardly any difference!

I'm going to try and get some pictures at 15off and 32/34mph. I tried to contribute to the site yesterday via pay pal and they got my cc# and then nothing happened. I'll get that straightened out and then post some pics. I doubt I'll put the effort into finding some of my old pics from my days at 15 and 22 off but that would be interesting.

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This was shortly after a lesson and I was skiing pretty well (for me atleast). To skisix's point about the size of the spray...this was 22 off / 32 mph / ball 5 and not much spray to speak of.

Sorry about the quality of the pic...my crew is camera challenged as well. :(

Edited by NorCaliBu
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Sorry, Martho, no pics.  I don't have a crew with the camera skills that you do.  I am very interested in this thread and am trying to learn all that I can.  Six, please don't stop posting.  This thread has been great.

Ditto. Awesome thread. Planning to sit down this evening with an adult beverage and re-read the entire thread and try to put it all together.

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" I couldn't care less how much water I throw in the air, but I do care about where on the ski it's coming off. That is a good indicator of whether my weight is balanced and where."

The HP skis are more sensitive to this yes, some more than others. For instance, your X5 is much more forgiving then your phantom about body position. The reason the big ski isn't as sensitive here is because even if the skier rides the tail there's still a lot of ski to leverage against.

"#2-Shaped entry level slaloms are designed to be very forgiving to weight shifts front to back, in turns and crossings, (at the expense of performance). The high end ski demands that you be very close to the balance point throughout the entire ride and that's what makes you better faster. You conform (get better) or you....get a lot of deep water starts I suppose. Going back and undoing your tight tolerances that you have now learned flys in the face of why we went up to the high end stick in the first place. You can learn these lessons you talk about on your fast ski more effectively than going back to something that is going to let you get away with murder (bad form)."

MY contention is why does it have to be this way? It was for me and now you're battling through it along with all the others reading this thread. I'm approaching this from the stand point that if I had a skisix teaching me all this stuff years ago, and I listened to him, I think I would be deeper than 39 today. I think it's easier to learn acceleration and body position than it is to learn how to change edge properly and how to control outbound speed and how to make a good turn. Those are the things that seperate the winners and the others at nationals.

The question is: What comes first, a good wake crossing with ltos of speed or a good turn that finishes in good body position with just enough angle?

I don't know that anwser. I just know that if you dont' have one it's harder to achieve the other.

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I may get back on my Phantom Truth (I love that thing) but I'm still not skiing on that Charger again...and you can't make me 'cause you're not the boss of me Tongue.gif

You are simply killing me!!!!! First ya get an outlaw but don't wait for it to come from me so that I know it performs. Result: you dont' like it. Then you score a X5 and liek it but are no threatening to get back on that phantom? Crazy.gifCrazy.gifCrazy.gif By chance did you always check your oxygen on preflight? 'cause I'm thinking maybe you didnt' have enough somewhere along the way.

Don't get back on the charger but please stay on the X5! The clinic could be a very long and tiring day for you. And BTW, I'll be having beverages on the way back to Dayton while you are driving.

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...and you can't make me 'cause you're not the boss of me Tongue.gif

By chance did you always check your oxygen on preflight? 'cause I'm thinking maybe you didnt' have enough somewhere along the way.

:lol: Man, I'm sorry that I'm gonna miss the mid-west clinic.... Biggrin.gif ....this ought to be good. :lol:

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This is insightful reading and hopefully it'll sink in and I'll perform it. I'm still working on getting on edge through the wake as Mike can attest I'm probably the poster child of what not to do. I'm on a 67" HO Burner which might be a tad small for me, but I can't blame that on the issues that I have.

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My off side is down right ugly I'll see if I have a picture from later in the year.

You do need to get the handle down, hips up, and back straight. Yes.gif Then once you start pulling all the way through the 2nd wake....you will be ready for the course. Clap.gif

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