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Skisix could not be more correct


martho

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I sent you a PM.

I think it's time for a new ski. Try a Monza/Sys 8 or a Carbonworx/D3 any of them. If nothing else the new style skis will make it easier on your body getting to 38.

Don't jump up on the front after the 2nd wake! Let the ski do it's job there and enjoy the ride, release slowly and wait for the boat to pick you back up. By jumping on th front you are moving your center forward and with the bevels and the skis design you are going to slow down too much, the ski will loose lift and you'll be waving to the boat as it rips the handle from your hands.

Stay nuetral to back and wait for the boat to advance down course and pick you up. It's very easy to overturn, try to resist turning, survive the turn and then get the pass from behind the boat.

That's great to get to the 3 @38!  I went back to review the pictures and I get a message that "you have reached your bandwith".  I don't feel full, and the mirror doesn't look any different.

What ski are you on and what speed are you going, 36 I presume.  Based on your description I am guessing that you are LFF and you aren't getting off 2 with any angle.  Close?  If I remember correctly from those pictures, those bouys are sitting awfully high in the water.  Doesn't that hurt your knees and thigh hitting the bouy as you scream by? 

The key I found to 38 is to "wait for the boat to come to you".  The slower I reach for the boat the wider the ski gets and the slower it turns.  The payoff is that it at the finish it jets under me and I am in perfect resistance position.  Even if I'm was late and down course, if I reach slowly I can run the pass.  When I reach out fast, the ski turns super hard and I'm not ready for the hook up or I dunk the handle(for support) and have to ski through the spray.

I'm the second guy with the funny face.

We all push each other.  The guy with the shaved head is my nemesis.  He taught me the run the course five years ago and now we run pretty much neck and neck.  He gets mad when I out ski him.  One of our neighbors thought I was his son.  That really got him going since he is only 9 years older than me.

I was talking with GalaxyToad on PM about my current barrier.  I am working to get past 3 at 38 off.  I have hit that mark at least 5 times and can't get beyond it.  I carry too much speed into 3 ball and either body slam or just blow by the ball.  I just moved my boot one hole forward and it seemed to help the ski come around at speed a little better.

Thanks. I just sent you a PM with a little more info. I saw that you had completed 38 and into 39.5 at a tournament (awesome!) and I was hoping you may be able to help me get past this magical pass.

I'm 44 and run at 34 now. I kind of like the feel of the ball going off my lower leg. It is instant feedback that I am in the right place. But you are right, the balls have a bit too much air.

I'm on a CDX. Everything you said above is right on. LFF and I try to make up angle at three (on-side) and over rotate and can't recover. What you are describing sounds pretty new school. Releasing allows me to slow down in the pre-turn. New School tends to carry that speed out and wide right through the turn. I have not figured that out yet. I just muscle my way through the wakes, release and jump on the front of the ski to slow down a bit. I need to learn to carry the speed better through the turn and ski a little lower to the water (not so stiff).

Thanks

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I was able to get out this weekend that try a few things SkiSix suggested. A couple of things not on this post (PM message) that helped.... Practiced at 32 off to try and create some muscle memory...

1. I didn't fully release as usual. I kept the handle low and close with one hand as I released just for an instant and then fully extended.

-this help me get wider before the ski fully initiated the turn. I was able to stay on my inside edge but continue outside. When I extended fully, the ski came around as usual.

2. I tried not to pull so aggressively right out of the turn and then not jump on the front edge to initiate the turn and I said above. I was trying to "feel" the speed and let it go wide.

3. This was not in the PM or the post, but I have read about the counter rotation position in the past on this site. I have been working on a better counter rotation and it really helps (especially on my HO) keep the ski in the water and produces a smooth turn.

My first 32 off pass was awesome. I love skiing wide and I usually do it by pulling hard right after the turn and muscling my way out there. The little change to the release got me out there without so much muscle and after the pass I was not as tired and ran three more sets feeling good.

It is definitely going to take some practice to change old habits, but I will get that 38 off pass one of these days.

Thanks for the help!

Edited by Rip6@36
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OK, I looked and which person are you?

My ski buddy started the year running at 34/15 about 50% of the time.  He has worked hard on the lessons I have been teaching and he regularly gets 2-3 at 34/35.  He got 5@35 in a tournament and he qualified for regionals and competed in the regionals.  With the some help you can all improve greatly, stick with it and enjoy.

PS my buddy keeps telling me that I should look over my should because he's catching me and next year he'll be beating me.  I welcome that as it will drive me to improve more quickly too.

I need Ski6 to look at the pix I posted over on the slalom skier pix thread and let me know what I'm doing wrong.  Keep it down to 8 to 10 things - that's all I can work on at one time.   Biggrin.gif

I looked at the pictures and it's hard to get much from the angle of the sun, you're just a sillouette. I can see that your arm are pulled up in anticipation of the boats pull- If you pull up on your arms before the boat start to load you, your weight will shift to your back foot making it hard to get angle because you're on the tail. It looks like you aren't on the tail in the photo, so what happened after the photo was snapped?

Rip: where are the pics posted?

I think you can just click my gallery or click on gallery at the top of the page and they should be the first few pictures.

WOW! Thats a heckuva year!

Six, alright, my turn for some help!

I'm in M2, but I used to ski at 32, this summer skied exclusively at 34, and I get hung up at 28 off.

But, I want to start skiing some tourneys, and obviously I have to start going 36. I've skied at 35 (free), but my position is just toast. I can't come up with a good mental thought to keep good position from the 34-36 mph jump. What did you think about when you made that speed jump? Anyone else who skis at 36 feel free to chime in.

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WOW!  Thats a heckuva year! 

Six, alright, my turn for some help!

I'm in M2, but I used to ski at 32, this summer skied exclusively at 34, and I get hung up at 28 off.

But, I want to start skiing some tourneys, and obviously I have to start going 36.  I've skied at 35 (free), but my position is just toast.  I can't come up with a good mental thought to keep good position from the 34-36 mph jump.  What did you think about when you made that speed jump?  Anyone else who skis at 36 feel free to chime in.

Alright, for starts we need the requisite ground rules: "hello, my name is Greg and I ski in M3, RFF, 68.5" Outlaw" :lol: What do you ski on JohnDoe?

If you got through 22 at 34mph you have all the fundementals for skiing 36. 36mph is all about leverage, in contrast 34mph is all about speed management. From your description it sounds like you are letting the ski get behind you at 36 but it's probably that way at 34 too and you are just able to manage it better.

To maintain a good leverage position you'll need to learn to get and keep your elbows and biceps in close to your vest at all times, excpet when you reach. Before you pull out for the gates think about driving your elbows into your sides and keeping them there no matter what loads. If you can do that, you'll be able to maintain a good position.

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WOW!  Thats a heckuva year! 

Six, alright, my turn for some help!

I'm in M2, but I used to ski at 32, this summer skied exclusively at 34, and I get hung up at 28 off.

But, I want to start skiing some tourneys, and obviously I have to start going 36.  I've skied at 35 (free), but my position is just toast.  I can't come up with a good mental thought to keep good position from the 34-36 mph jump.  What did you think about when you made that speed jump?  Anyone else who skis at 36 feel free to chime in.

Alright, for starts we need the requisite ground rules: "hello, my name is Greg and I ski in M3, RFF, 68.5" Outlaw" :lol: What do you ski on JohnDoe?

If you got through 22 at 34mph you have all the fundementals for skiing 36. 36mph is all about leverage, in contrast 34mph is all about speed management. From your description it sounds like you are letting the ski get behind you at 36 but it's probably that way at 34 too and you are just able to manage it better.

To maintain a good leverage position you'll need to learn to get and keep your elbows and biceps in close to your vest at all times, excpet when you reach. Before you pull out for the gates think about driving your elbows into your sides and keeping them there no matter what loads. If you can do that, you'll be able to maintain a good position.

Hi Greg! I'm John. I ride a 67" monza, LFF, I have problems with the ski overturning, especially on my off side. I usually rely on my good side cut to make up for my crappy off side turns.

I think your thought is a great starting point. I have noticed that I can make up some time by thinking "get the handle down"...but the bicep thing is a new thought and I like the sounds of it.

Recently, I had a good breakthrough. I used to say "get the ski perpendicular"---now I've been thinking "dead lift the rope". When I think that, the ski is getting more perpendicular and I'm in a better position to "protect" it coming off the second wake. Make sense? I plan on skiing tonight, I'll give the bicep thought a go. Thanks, ski one and a half at 39 and a half!

Elbows to sides....elbows to sides...elbows to sides...

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  • 4 weeks later...

Great work!

I remember the transitions from 15 off to 22 off and 22 to 28 off being the most difficult. Even today, I think 22 off is harder for me than 28 off. I think it is because it takes a lot more energy to pull across the wakes at 22 off. At 28 off things start to happen much quicker.

I think you will advance quickly once you get past the 22 off pass.

Keep us posted as you progress. We can live vicariously through your late season skiing. Biggrin.gif

Edited by Rip6@36
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Thanks Martho! I'm glad it's making it fun for you! That's the way to get better. Practice up this spring and bring both skis with you to the clinic.

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Is there some movement afoot to silence the swami?

This is for those behind the scenes who think having a super fast, high end ski and skiing 30-32mph is the way to go. I did that and lost a large part of the season stalling and going OTF at 1 ball. Hopefully, those doubters can learn from my wasted 4 months of skiing with no progress.

Edited by martho
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This begs the question- How did people get good at slalom before shaped skis then? I skied the burner and it felt more on top of the water than my CDX. Granted it is a 68 and I weigh a few pounds less than M. It was really odd feeling. When the nice 32mph pass happens on the CDX (a bit of a rarity admittedly) it is because I know I hammered it through the gates. The ski just swings right around the ball. Most of my 1 ball baffles are bad gate shots. Going to a wider ski would probably increase the sweet spot tolerance so a not so good gate would result in a decent turn still. I donno. That ski just felt really funny and uncomfortable.

Edited by M3Fan
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OK Martho, my hat is off to you. I don't know how you did it. I went out with my X5 and the Charger (the 69" version of your Burner) that I keep for guests. I progressed from a Charger to a CDX to a Phantom Truth in 2 seasons. My theory was ski 30-32mph on a super fast high-end ski as soon as I could stand up on one and work my way up to 36mph. That was until I read about your experience. I own a Charger and was willing to try it. There is a lot to be said for those high end ski's light weight, edge designs, side cut and rocker. Shaped entry level skis like the Charger have nothing on the sides to hang on to. I could no more get into the course on that ski than fly backwards. I'm back to my original theory. Get on a high end ski as soon as you have the balance to stand up on it. If you're getting around buoys on a Burner after coming off the System 8 you are the man.

We are down to driver/skier at this time of the year so I cant get any pix/vid tomorrow.

When I ski on the 67" Burner, it just doesnt dive into the water like the S8 did. My Burner stays on top of the water and finishes the turn. The ski is pointing cross course and I dont have to rip it to get across course in time for the next ball. As I round the ball, the ski is already pointing across course and not dug into the water so deep that I stop. Without having the slack pop out of the line and yank me, I just cruise over to the next ball.

I understand what you are saying. It took me 3 times out on the burner to keep from washing it out. I thought I had to ride it like the S8 where it was turn and burn. I started going out and just riding it without all the monster turns and crazy pulling. skisix told me I just dont have to pull like this at 15' 32mph.

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one quick question that i can not recall being talked about earlier in the previous topic, and sorry if it was but, how much wing angle were you running on the S8, if at all?

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GT, did you move the fin on your wide-body all the way forward? That makes a big difference in the way the ski turns. After getting back to a skinny ski a couple of years ago, any time I'd jump on my wide-body was, as you said, unfulfilling. That ski was like a barge. Then, this fall, I ripped my boot on my good ski and had to go back to the wide-body (KD Apex). I decided to go ahead and move the fin all the way forward and convinced myself to do nothing but work on improving my horrible technique. We eventually made our way to the course and I was amazed at how easily I ran a few passes. Of course, I didn't have my regular ski to compare to and my technique MAY have been a bit better, but I was still very surprised at what a difference I felt.

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Please explain "no edge" The X5 is a radiused bevel and you have demonstrated that it can turn and hold angle. Granted, a wider ski is going to take more effort to roll onto turning edge after the second wake, the payoff after that is that the tip of ski will stay up a little better, not "dive" as earlier referenced and the ski will maintain more lift through out the turn. I thought you said you liked that feature about the X5.

It may be the difference in speeds you two are traveling and the weights on the ski versus ski size.

Disclaimer: I have never riden one of those skis.

Maybe it's my expectations that need adjusting. I rode a Charger when I first started skiing (late 2003). I was at an experience level that caused me to miss 3 of every 5 starts and stare at the wakes during the crossing. The ski seemed very stable and suited my needs. By spring 2004 I switched to the CDX and found out what an edge was for. My theory was get on a super fast super performance ski as soon as humanly possible to continue raising my game. I had no idea that the Charger and it's peers (Magnum, Burner, Venture, etc) had no edge until yesterday. The CDX, Phantom Truth, Monza, S8 and all their peers have a distinct edge that you can feel and really lay in to. When I look at the pics you are posting (excellent pics by the way, I need to hire your photog) I see a guy who definitely should be on a high performance ski but could also use a day with a fin doctor. Offside turn set up. The ski is slow around the corner offside. April spent 2 sessions trying to teach me the difference between riding the back half of the ski and "pushing on the tail". When I push on the tail, the ski resists everything I do. It's my M.O. on the CDX. The Phantom is faster so I don't do it as much.

My guess is that you have more natural balance than I do because going back to a Comp-Freeride after investing myself into CDX/Phantom/X5 etc was, well... unfulfilling.

I went from cutting with a scalpel to cutting with a dessert spoon.

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Howdy!

Well, 830am today, I went out with one goal in mind. I said I was gonna pull through the wakes and generate some speed cross course.

I ran my 32mph pass and then dropped in the hole. We bumped to 34mph(remember this is a non PP boat, but close from GPS and RPM readings. cold water may play a bit of a factor, too) and I ran the pass relatively without issue.

The water was choppy due to a stiff 16mph breeze, but the course is somewhat sheltered, so the water was choppy, but not 16mph wind rollers.

On several occassions, I remember thinking about where the ski was pointing when I finished my turns going to 2 - 4 - 6. In the pass at 34mph, the ski was pointing across course much better than in those photos above. Furthermore, there was no YANK as the rope came tight. Whether its right or wrong, I dont know, however I remember being able to see my turn finish and see spray going forward at the end of the turn, as I looked toward the boat. Look at the pic in post #10, and there is zero spray between me and the boat. Skisix, correct me if I am wrong, but this means the ski finished the turn and was on edge ready to pull to the wakes spraying water in front of me?????????????

I only took 5 passes thru the course today due to a time constraint and water conditions. I had 3 full passes, one fall and an issue pass(boat speed...not driver's fault) I just wanted to see if everything I mentioned in previous posts was still occurring or if it was a fluke. I hope to have vid this Sat morning and take the RLX with PP for some accuracy and vids to go with all my posts :)

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I had heard that those skis were capable of 34 mph passes....I guess I thought it was just marketing hype. Impressive. Congrats, it sounds like you're making real progress.

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Furthermore, there was no YANK as the rope came tight.  Whether its right or wrong, I dont know, however I remember being able to see my turn finish and see spray going forward at the end of the turn, as I looked toward the boat.  Look at the pic in post #10, and there is zero spray between me and the boat.  Skisix, correct me if I am wrong, but this means the ski finished the turn and was on edge ready to pull to the wakes spraying water in front of me?????????????

I don't understand your question here. In post #10, the picture shows you loaded from the boat and the ski is pointing straight at the boat, parellel to the line of the rope. Ideally, the skier should have the ski and hips pointed cross course at the point where the boat starts to load you. I made some mention of that in the "nooner" thread with some pics showing GT at about the same position. To have the boat load you up WHILE you are trying to establish your angle into the next ball creates a lot of acceleration but no angle.

So, Martho, are you saying that in todays set you were finished with your turn and then the load from the boat got you and that you didn't take a hit from the slack?

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What I am saying is the ski finished and the rope was tight. There was no yank and the ski was pointing cross course, not at the boat. As I got ready for the pull coming out of the turn, I could see spray shooting forward(down course) in the direction of the boat. I remember it, very clearly, as I have never seen that before. I made me think, "Does this mean the ski finished its turn and it pointing cross course?" If the ski is pointing at the boat, even if there is edge, the spray would be going out toward the ball line, not forward. That is my question to you, Master of 39.5 :)

I also remember seeing the ski, too. Another first in a 2/4/6 turn.

I have been thinking about this for a few weeks. I hope everyone understands I am thrilled to be the example. If I had a complex about my level of skiing or I was a poster who always commented about my abilities, and then showed these pix, it could be ugly. However, I am happy to let everyone know my skill level or lack thereof, for the benefit of the group. Most importanly, it is helping me. Let's face it, we are all in this for ourselves to get better.

Edited by martho
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Yes, that's the ticket! The way you described it, all you have to do is keep your body tight against the load of the boat and resist the boats load of pulling you forward and off edge. That should feel "easier" and after the set your body should feel not as worked. Marcus Brown and west coast slalom calls that "efficiency of motion".

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I had heard that those skis were capable of 34 mph passes....I guess I thought it was just marketing hype.  Impressive.  Congrats, it sounds like you're making real progress.

I ran 5 @28 off at 34mph numerous times this summer on the 69" version of that ski the Charger. It definitely can handle the course.

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I can give you all the set up #'s on the S8 for this discussion. I like the point/counterpoint setting we are in here. I think many people can learn from all of this!

Bindings neutral

I will go out to the garage later and get the 3 measurements with the caliper.

BTW: since this thread is all about me Tongue.gif , here are a couple more "analysis" pix from Aug - Early Sept on the S8

post-77-1131044760_thumb.jpg

Edited by martho
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I think he's sinking just like I think you were sinking in the photos from the nooner thread.

Why? Ultimately, his max cross course speed was not high enough to sustain enough lift through the turn bank for that turn. No fin adjustment will cure that.

So, the choices are to get more speed or carry more speed through the turn or not bank in the turn as much.

I think the whole start to this was because I said that a wider ski would provide more lift through the turn by carrying more speed after the second wake. The S8 and all HP skis are designed to settle in the water and start turning when the edge changes from "away from the boat" to "towards the boat".

I agree that in this picture there is a lot of ski out of the water and it takes much more effort to accelerate with less ski. Which do you work on first? Positioning on the ski while never getting free from the boat or getting free from boat so you can be in position? I don't know, what I do know is that every skier that is getting thru 28 at 34 mph has learned how to get into position and get free of the boat.

Now I think this poor guy is suffering under a bad set-up. The ski is slow exiting his off-side turn. I believe that with a combination of exaggerated hips-up and an adjustment to his set-up to make the ski a little faster:

Decrease wing angle

Decrease tip

Increase fin depth

Move the fin forward

This problem goes away.

What do you think?

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