Hard starting 2007 Vride with LCR 320

[dennisvride]

Hey All,

I am a newbie. Just bought my 2007 vride with lcr 320 end of last year and it has about 50 hours on it. Even the day I did my demo ride on my vride it seemed to crank excessively before starting. Of course the salesman fed me the line that they are all like that because they dont have the refined fuel systems cars do.

So anyway my engine almost always takes at least five seconds minimum to crank be it a hot engine or cold. The real problem is frequently it can take 15 to 20 seconds, more often when hot but it does it cold from time to time. And occasionaly it fires off as soon as it cranks but that is maybe once in twenty starts.

When the engine finally starts it usually fires right off like someone flicked a switch while I was cranking. No smoke, no real sputtering, starts all at once, runs strong and idles great. Doesnt act like vapor lock which is what I am sure many will say it has.

*I tried doing the cycling of the ignition switch to prime fuel line... Fuel pump cycles initially then turns off but makes no difference in starting.

* Engine compartment is not excessively hot (causing vapor lock)

* Doesnt matter if I let engine Idle longer before shutting down

*Cranking speed and battery seem fine

* The dealer was able to duplicate the problem a couple times and said that while it was cranking for the 15 seconds or so with the laptop connected the fuel pump was showing it was not turned on. Then the fuel pump would say "on" the engine would instantly start. To me I think the ecm is either not getting a strong signal from the crank sensor so it knows to turn the fuel pump back on after cylcling or it is getting the signal and is failing to tell the fuel pump to turn on. My dealer/tech contacted Indmar and they had him reinstall the software in the ecm. The excessive cranking issue didnt repeat it self till I took the boat home. "OF COURSE" My tech said he doesnt know why it was doing it but he thought he fixed it. Nothing against my tech he does great work.

So anyway I talked to Indmar myself and they tried to say it is winter gas and all this other stuff (even though I said the fuel pump doesnt get signal to turn on while cranking) I said ecm and they said no way! Its funny they say no way to ecm but recomended reloading the ecm. I guess they believe only the software can be bad but not the hardware itself. So anyway I am taking the boat to the dealer again 2 hours away, probably the first of many trips for this and was hoping a tech or owner who had this problem solved would shed some light or provide a out of the box idea.

Thanks in advance Dennis

[electricjohn]

Dennis, On my '02 monsoon, there is no crank signal to the ECM. A distibutor pulse reference is what will restart the fuel pump after the initial 2 second pulse on key-up. '07's might be different, but that I don't know. Your engine should start instantly though. Some of the things the ECM looks at on key up or cranking is the coolant temperature sensor, the baro signal via the MAP sensor and the throttle position via the TPS. The 2 seconds of fuel pump time during key up should be more than enough to get you started unless your fuel pressure relief valve is stuck open. This is the valve that regulates the pressure in the fuel rails.

[wakbord11]

i have the same issue with my 07 vlx /monsoon. it always starts,,,but definately has to turn over longer than any of my other malibus did.

[dennisvride]

Dennis, On my '02 monsoon, there is no crank signal to the ECM. A distibutor pulse reference is what will restart the fuel pump after the initial 2 second pulse on key-up. '07's might be different, but that I don't know. Your engine should start instantly though. Some of the things the ECM looks at on key up or cranking is the coolant temperature sensor, the baro signal via the MAP sensor and the throttle position via the TPS. The 2 seconds of fuel pump time during key up should be more than enough to get you started unless your fuel pressure relief valve is stuck open. This is the valve that regulates the pressure in the fuel rails.

Hey thanks for getting back to me so soon. So if I understand you right you are saying that the initial pulse of the fuel pump is supposed to be sufficient to start the engine without the fuel pump having to turn back on a second time.

1 So the fuel pump shouldnt need to come on again till the engine is at idle?

2 Doesnt the ecm need to see 300 rpm to restart the pump?

3 If there is no crank sensor signal but a pulse from the distributor is the ecm waiting to count total revolutions before restarting the pump rather than a rate or turn of the crank ( RPM)?

4 Are you betting the ecm is not the problem but rather a bypass valve?

5 Do these engines usually start right away like one or two cranks like most engines?

So what I think may be possible based on what you are saying is that because the engine doesnt have the fuel pressure to start up right away due to leak down it cranks and cranks at starter speed and it is probably just barely getting to the rpm to restart the fuel pump after excessive cranking. If the engine had fired right off it would have had the rpm to activate the pump again.

Are you a Malibu/Indmar Tech because this is the most sensible explanation I have heard.

O and ps do you realize we practicaly live around the block from each other. I am in princeton. Do you board or ski. I board at bordentown. black and white vride with illusion tower. I assume your name is John.

Hope to here back from you I am taking the boat to dealer tommorow. Dennis

[dennisvride]

i have the same issue with my 07 vlx /monsoon. it always starts,,,but definately has to turn over longer than any of my other malibus did.

Does it ever go like 15 seconds? Is it worse when engine is off for ten minutes? What does your dealer say? I am a little aggravated.

[electricjohn]

Dennis,

1) Cranking speed should be enough to produce the reference pulse from the distributer that the ECM sees and responds by turning on the fuel pump. But 07's might have a crank signal to the ECM. It comes from the key switch when in the starting position.

2) See 1

more after dinner.

[electricjohn]

3) As soon as the distributor starts turning it starts putting out pulses, 4 per engine revolution.

4) A good possibility. A fuel preesure test would support that guess though.

5) Yes, it is a car engine, and a very refined one at that. Mine fires instantly even after sitting all winter.

That's what came to mind first.

No, not an indmar tech, but I am an instrument tech. I have followed process controlled engines since they were introduced, (are you old enough to remember mixture controlled carburetors) and they all work basically the same way, whether cars (OBD I & II), or boats (MEFI).

I am currently working down in Princeton. Yes, I ski and board, skiing since 1963. My daughters in the upper left corner are third generation pyramiders. Where in Bordentown do you ski? What dealer are you using?

Edited May 13, 2008 by electricjohn

[dennisvride]

John I sent you a pm

[dennisvride]

John,

WE THINK WE FOUND THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!

I wanted to make a updated post on what we found wrong with my engine so others that are having extended cranking could have something to look at first.

Turns out your guess as of now is what we think is happening. We put a fuel pressure guage on the fuel rail and on key up the pressure went to 55 psi and as soon as the pump finished its prime and shut off the pressure fell to zero within about two seconds. If you cranked before the pressure droped below 30psi it started reasonably well. If you let the pressure go to zero you would get the 5-15 second crank. You could than see that when the fuel pump came back on and as the pressure came up again the engine would start. While the engine was running the pressure was staying around 55psi. As a result this is why the tech did not examine the fuel pressure so closely and missed the fact that pressure was bleeding off after prime.

We tried swapping the pressure regulator on top of the fuel pump housing at the tank (held in with c clip) with a known good one and it did seem the pressure droped slightly slower but it overall was still quite rapid and unaccepable. The current diagnosis is that some check ball, oring within the pump itself or a crack is letting the pressure out rapidly. The pump design doesnt look as if it lends itself to being repaired and the dealer doesnt want to assume the liability for tampering with it which I can understand. So as of now we think we have it solved and a pump is on order. I will post the final results after I get the boat back and do a night of wakeboarding. Which Should be next week.

Anyone having a similiar issue should get it resolved in warranty because a pump is $400. It takes a tech 5 minutes to hook up a guage and see if the fuel rail is holding pressure after prime.

John I want to thank you again. If you had not responded to my post this may have been over looked again and we may have replaced something that wasnt broke causing me more trips to the dealer and more days without my boat.

Ps John yes I only wakeboard now as I feel it is much more fun and rewarding than skiing. Never been to lake hapatcong I go to Bordentown which is only 30 minute drive. If you pm me with your contact info maybe we can get together down at the river or follow you up to the lake sometime. Dennis

[electricjohn]

Glad it is all panning out for you.

[JZ Rlxi 2007]

Did anyone ever hear if installing a new fuel pump fixed the problem? I have a 07 Response with Indmar Monsoon that seems to be doing the same thing. Starts in an instant cold. But, after we ski a while, shut it off and shortly later try to restart, it takes at least 15-20 seconds to finally start. Lately, it even seems harder to start and you have to let it sit a while and try again. Frustrating.

Besides the possible same fuel pump problem, I also also noticed the K&N air filter was very oilly - oil even dripping into the throttle body. This seems odd in the the boat now has over 200 hours. Would not have thought the filter would still beoozing oil? But, this may be a non-issue.

Thanks.

[tru-jack]

did theses issues ever get resolved, as it sounds similar to my problem. thanks

[shawndoggy]

I think this is my problem too. Sent this thread to my tech. Thanks crew.

[shawndoggy]

strike that. We're holding 50+ on prime after key up. Gonna try that supplemental secondary fuel pump kit that indmar makes.