Zero Off

[SmoothWaterMan]

In short, yes, I think it is a sad day.

The short story is this;

-PP and ZO were both in litigation against each other for patent infringements, etc.

-The only ones winning were the lawyers.

-Foresee-able future is that engine mfgs are going to adopt an ECM manufactured by a company heavily involved with ZO, therefore they could simply write PP out of the picture if they chose too.

-PP, while a great company, was still small and someone had made the decision a few years ago to keep doing on their own rather than partnering up with a larger boat or engine company. This likely was a key to the current state of affairs.

-PP will still offer stargazer and more to any 2008 and prior year ski/wake boats.

What PP can't do is offer a stargazer unit for a 2009 model year boat that comes with drive by wire throttle.

In regards to the slalom course, speed really is just an easy way to define a time through the course. The only thing that matters is the 1st segment, 2nd segment, and overall time through the course. On a dead calm private lake inside a bubble, this would correlate (in US equivilants) to the speeds referred to as 30/32/34/36 mph. (and slower for lower age groups) I believe 36 mph overall actual is 16.08 seconds. This is what you are shooting to achieve, no matter if you have a current, a headwind, a long rope or a short rope. In a river with a 2 mph current you always want to start your passes so that your hardest pass is down-stream, to try and keep it slow, unless you ski better into the wind anyhow....for that upstream run is now 38 mph over the water.

Peter

[jjackkrash]

In short, yes, I think it is a sad day.

The short story is this;

-PP and ZO were both in litigation against each other for patent infringements, etc.

-The only ones winning were the lawyers.

-Foresee-able future is that engine mfgs are going to adopt an ECM manufactured by a company heavily involved with ZO, therefore they could simply write PP out of the picture if they chose too.

-PP, while a great company, was still small and someone had made the decision a few years ago to keep doing on their own rather than partnering up with a larger boat or engine company. This likely was a key to the current state of affairs.

-PP will still offer stargazer and more to any 2008 and prior year ski/wake boats.

What PP can't do is offer a stargazer unit for a 2009 model year boat that comes with drive by wire throttle.

In regards to the slalom course, speed really is just an easy way to define a time through the course. The only thing that matters is the 1st segment, 2nd segment, and overall time through the course. On a dead calm private lake inside a bubble, this would correlate (in US equivilants) to the speeds referred to as 30/32/34/36 mph. (and slower for lower age groups) I believe 36 mph overall actual is 16.08 seconds. This is what you are shooting to achieve, no matter if you have a current, a headwind, a long rope or a short rope. In a river with a 2 mph current you always want to start your passes so that your hardest pass is down-stream, to try and keep it slow, unless you ski better into the wind anyhow....for that upstream run is now 38 mph over the water.

Peter

Its a little like golf: its a hell of a lot harder on a very windy day, but the rules don't change, the scores just go up.

[mlange]

If PP really has to back off any TBW installs then they've virtually guaranteed death of the company. At some point in the not-so-distant future all boats will have TBW and the market for non-TBW boats will completely dry up.

Agreed?

[jjackkrash]

If PP really has to back off any TBW installs then they've virtually guaranteed death of the company. At some point in the not-so-distant future all boats will have TBW and the market for non-TBW boats will completely dry up.

Agreed?

Agreed. My guess is the owners had a choice between cashing out now and losing the company down the road, or just losing the company down the road.

[JohnDoe]

In short, yes, I think it is a sad day.

The short story is this;

-PP and ZO were both in litigation against each other for patent infringements, etc.

-The only ones winning were the lawyers.

Don't know the validity to anyone's patent infringement (if any), but it would seem to me that zero off is the winner.

[Addictedto6]

In short, yes, I think it is a sad day.

The short story is this;

-PP and ZO were both in litigation against each other for patent infringements, etc.

-The only ones winning were the lawyers.

Don't know the validity to anyone's patent infringement (if any), but it would seem to me that zero off is the winner.

Well, that might all depend on how much they paid for the perfect pass technology, right?

[zad0030]

So Zero off is the clear cut winner

[MalibuTime]

Doesn't GPS pinpoint off of land based points of reference? and if so how does it factor in water currents?

GPS is satalite based... but can't factor in water currents - would be inaccurate in any moving water

GPS will actually be "accurate" in any water conditions, because it doesn't base anything on the water. You have to factor currents into speed based units using a paddlewheel or pitot tube, for those are "in-accurate" due to the moving water.

Don't you have that backwards? What matters is speed relative to water, not land. So, if going up current, in a 2mph current, if zero off is going 36, it's going 38 on the water, which is too fast, which is why ppass was preferred for current situations, because if ppass thought it was going 36, it was relative to the water, who cares if its just 34 relative to the shore.

For purposes of slalom course speed control, it's not relative to moving water, but instead fixed positions on the course (which is the equivalent of land in this case). It doesn't matter what the water is doing - the boat speed needs to be adjusted so that the time in the course is correct, right?

So speed through the buoys is more important that speed of the water? Guess having a course in moving water isn't ideal, and that neither scenario is great... I imagine traveling 1 or 2 mph faster & slower across the water each direction would be pretty noticeable to a serious skier.. with the same buoy speed each way.

You don't even have to be that serious! I've skied parts of the Columbia where the current was significant enough that it feels very different going up as opposed to down stream. Downstream feels faster, seams like alot less drag and faster acceleration. I am not sure what the current was, 2-3 MPH (between Entiat and Pateros).

[spinxt]

I'm lost here....is PP going "out of business"? Or are they just walking away from future business and putting all of their eggs into the "older" ski boat market. If true, this sounds like a flawed business model...how can they base future growth of their company based on the thought that existing ski boat users without PP will all of a sudden want to install it??

[zad0030]

I'm lost here....is PP going "out of business"? Or are they just walking away from future business and putting all of their eggs into the "older" ski boat market. If true, this sounds like a flawed business model...how can they base future growth of their company based on the thought that existing ski boat users without PP will all of a sudden want to install it??

The makers of Zero Off filed a lawsuit against PP for stealing a patent for the GPS system. Latest update is that PP will stick around but they cant make any more systems for DBW engines. And Zero off cant make systems for Mechanical engines. So eventually the market for PP will dry up and they will no longer be around.

[skisix@38]

There are a whole lot of non-tourney boats out there that don't apply to this and PP can sell all day long to those folks. How would you like to have Crownline, Rinker, Sea Ray as your customers?

The whinning, me included, is for the slalom pull only. Most of the market is wakeboarding and PP can sell a lot of units to peeps in the big 'ole I/O and make a ton of money.

[zad0030]

There are a whole lot of non-tourney boats out there that don't apply to this and PP can sell all day long to those folks. How would you like to have Crownline, Rinker, Sea Ray as your customers?

The whinning, me included, is for the slalom pull only. Most of the market is wakeboarding and PP can sell a lot of units to peeps in the big 'ole I/O and make a ton of money.

But not all boats even I/Os will use a Mechanical driven engine. The idea is that once all boats have moved over to DBW the market for PP will dry up.

[bretski75]

But can't you get PP stargazer with DBW? Won't sea ray, rinker, etc be able to offer factory PP. As well as aftermarket sales to all boats?

Or am I wrong and the lawsuit took away PP's DBW capability?

I just reread the above.

"Zero Off will be the exclusive GPS speed control system provided by OEM boat manufacturers for all "Throttle by Wire" applications. This technology is utilized by most leading engine builders in the inboard and stern drive marine markets."

I guess I answered my own question.

Edited August 27, 2008 by bretski75