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Ballast for beginners


Arkid

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I'm new to boating and wakeboarding and are finding new surprises each time I go out. My kids (6 & 9) are both up on a board along with my wife and myself. We've all always snowboarded and this seems no different so it was an easy transition.

We just had our first weekend out this season and a few goes at boarding towards the end of last year. I was trying to make wake-to-wake jumps & I could just about make it to the top of the far wake but not fully to the otherside. The boat is a 2000 Escape LSV with no stock ballast but it does have the Wedge, which I wasn't using.

Is the idea of adding ballast to sink the boat as evenly as possible nose to tail?

I noticed, especially when pulling the kids, that the bow is very high. Should I be just weighting the bow to keep it down? If I weight the bow, will using the Wedge even out the boat enough or would I have to start adding more rear ballast to compensate?

Again, we are all very much begginers with only about half a dozen pulls each so i'm not looking for huge launch ramp wakes (yet) but enough to get us up and over. I was looking at a couple of different sacs to add to the boat namely the Fly High Pro X bow sac which seems like a lot of weight at around 1000lbs and the Skylon Ski Locker sac which runs about 375lbs. I prefer the idea of hiding the Skylon in the ski locker so we can keep the bow open but is this enough weight?

Thanks for any input!

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You'll hear lots on answers from just try the wedge to you need 1000s of lbs. My suggestion is to start slow, use the wedge and maybe add the locker sac and see what you think. More can always be added later.

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1st of all adding weight to the boat will make the wake wider. That being said weighting the bow will give you a little less vertical angle on your wake throwing you farther, but not as high. A trick I use for beginners to get across the wake and get them the feel of the down side wake landing (addictive) is to shorten the rope up. This technique allows for a shorter wake crossing at slower speeds. After you get your 1st true wake to wake the only solution for going longer is as many sets as you can get a week. Yahoo.gif

Joe

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Oh I almost forgot to address your bowrise problem. I am assuming that you are pulling the kids at 12-14mph or there abouts. If so your bow rise is very hard to fix. The boat is not really down in the water or completely up on plane. It would take a tremendous about of ballast to overcome this situation. If you don't use the wedge for the kids it will plane out a little quicker and bring the bow down.

Good Luck

Joe

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1st of all adding weight to the boat will make the wake wider. That being said weighting the bow will give you a little less vertical angle on your wake throwing you farther, but not as high. A trick I use for beginners to get across the wake and get them the feel of the down side wake landing (addictive) is to shorten the rope up. This technique allows for a shorter wake crossing at slower speeds. After you get your 1st true wake to wake the only solution for going longer is as many sets as you can get a week. Yahoo.gif

Joe

Man I tell ya when i've been pulling the kids that wake looks a million miles across! I'm going to try the shorter rope for sure. The idea of going farther but not as high seems good for now. Speed is a factor I hadn't really thought about though. How does speed affect the wake as far as how wide it is or is it a constant?

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Oh I almost forgot to address your bowrise problem. I am assuming that you are pulling the kids at 12-14mph or there abouts. If so your bow rise is very hard to fix. The boat is not really down in the water or completely up on plane. It would take a tremendous about of ballast to overcome this situation. If you don't use the wedge for the kids it will plane out a little quicker and bring the bow down.

Good Luck

Joe

I wasn't going to use the wedge for the kids, the wakes look pretty big compared to their size. I think the problem is I have no frame of reference. We watch boarding videos to get an idea of techniques but I guess you really don't get a feel for wake size and speed etc. I haven't seen anyone boarding other than what looks like casual day users/beginners. I always feel you need to really see people that know what they're doing to get a handle on how to improve.

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The faster you go the narrower the wake at any set distance from the boat. As for watching someone who knows what they are doing there are a few on this site that will be at the NorCal WOW. If you can make it out it would be great to meet you and your family and share what little knowledge we may have.

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I'd suggest trying wedge first then if you want more, add some people and have them move around so that you get the idea if weight suits you and where to put that weight. Perhaps just try people and no wedge. If you like the weight effect, buy sacs of similar weight to the people.

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The faster you go the narrower the wake at any set distance from the boat. As for watching someone who knows what they are doing there are a few on this site that will be at the NorCal WOW. If you can make it out it would be great to meet you and your family and share what little knowledge we may have.

Thanks for the invite! Not too sure if I can make it up there though. Any in SoCal?

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With your skill level, stay away from ballasting the boat for now, the only exception I would make would be to put a little up front to help with the bowrise. It won't eliminate it, but it will help a bit. I honestly wouldn't even use the wedge, especially at those speeds since it will only make the bowrise worse. Weight up front will also make the wake a bit narrower, at least on some boats I've seen it work that way so maybe 3-400 pounds up front will be a good thing in your case. But I'll emphasize working on your technique, searching for "progressive edge" here will help (this is the single biggest difference between wakeboarding & snowboarding - the combination of loading the line & edging properly are done a bit differently on a wakeboard). Slider has a technique of shortening the rope that doesn't leave a knot in the rope that maybe he would share. It makes it so that you can shorten it up so much that you almost can't help but go w2w. That really helps build confidence in the kiddos & some adults that just can't seem to get there.

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Arkid, I've found that adding ballast doesn't really help me cross the wake any easier. I was crossing the other wake just fine at the beginning of last season, without using the wedge or any extra ballast, and then somehow I lost it again. I started adding ballast and using the wedge more and it didn't really help. I'm just now starting to get where I can cross the wake easily again. I really think it's all in your form. I started going back to basics, trying to load the rope properly, and concentrating on holding the edge all the way through the other wake, and then I could cross the wake again, regardless of wake size. One of the things that helped me cross the wake in the beginning was speeding the boat up to 23 mph, which brought the wakes closer together. It felt like cheating. However, once I got it, I was able to slow the boat down again and I was still able to cross.

The ballast that seems to help the most on my boat is the center ballast, but only because it helps with the bow rise and keeps the perfect pass more steady. The 23 footers are prone to screwing up the perfect pass without that front weight. I put a Pro-X Tube Sac in the ski locker.

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With your skill level, stay away from ballasting the boat for now, the only exception I would make would be to put a little up front to help with the bowrise. It won't eliminate it, but it will help a bit. I honestly wouldn't even use the wedge, especially at those speeds since it will only make the bowrise worse. Weight up front will also make the wake a bit narrower, at least on some boats I've seen it work that way so maybe 3-400 pounds up front will be a good thing in your case. But I'll emphasize working on your technique, searching for "progressive edge" here will help (this is the single biggest difference between wakeboarding & snowboarding - the combination of loading the line & edging properly are done a bit differently on a wakeboard). Slider has a technique of shortening the rope that doesn't leave a knot in the rope that maybe he would share. It makes it so that you can shorten it up so much that you almost can't help but go w2w. That really helps build confidence in the kiddos & some adults that just can't seem to get there.

I think i've got the progressive edge thing figured out but again without seeing or being with someone who actually knows what they're doing I could be wrong. I'm going about 18mph right now, it feels a bit fast and I have slowed it down to about 16.5mph. This also maybe in part to the lake being fairly choppy. I'm still looking forward to the day when I get to board on glass.

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The ballast that seems to help the most on my boat is the center ballast, but only because it helps with the bow rise and keeps the perfect pass more steady. The 23 footers are prone to screwing up the perfect pass without that front weight. I put a Pro-X Tube Sac in the ski locker.

Sounds good to me. I've noticed the PP doesn't hold too steady but I just thought that's the way it was. Hopefully i'll see some improvement.

What size is the sac you have and how much weight does it add?

Edited by Arkid
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With your skill level, stay away from ballasting the boat for now, the only exception I would make would be to put a little up front to help with the bowrise. It won't eliminate it, but it will help a bit. I honestly wouldn't even use the wedge, especially at those speeds since it will only make the bowrise worse. Weight up front will also make the wake a bit narrower, at least on some boats I've seen it work that way so maybe 3-400 pounds up front will be a good thing in your case. But I'll emphasize working on your technique, searching for "progressive edge" here will help (this is the single biggest difference between wakeboarding & snowboarding - the combination of loading the line & edging properly are done a bit differently on a wakeboard). Slider has a technique of shortening the rope that doesn't leave a knot in the rope that maybe he would share. It makes it so that you can shorten it up so much that you almost can't help but go w2w. That really helps build confidence in the kiddos & some adults that just can't seem to get there.

I think i've got the progressive edge thing figured out but again without seeing or being with someone who actually knows what they're doing I could be wrong. I'm going about 18mph right now, it feels a bit fast and I have slowed it down to about 16.5mph. This also maybe in part to the lake being fairly choppy. I'm still looking forward to the day when I get to board on glass.

For adults I'd say speed it up a bit to 19-20. That will help narrow up the wake a bit & help float the board a bit more. If I can ask, how big are you & your wife?

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With your skill level, stay away from ballasting the boat for now, the only exception I would make would be to put a little up front to help with the bowrise. It won't eliminate it, but it will help a bit. I honestly wouldn't even use the wedge, especially at those speeds since it will only make the bowrise worse. Weight up front will also make the wake a bit narrower, at least on some boats I've seen it work that way so maybe 3-400 pounds up front will be a good thing in your case. But I'll emphasize working on your technique, searching for "progressive edge" here will help (this is the single biggest difference between wakeboarding & snowboarding - the combination of loading the line & edging properly are done a bit differently on a wakeboard). Slider has a technique of shortening the rope that doesn't leave a knot in the rope that maybe he would share. It makes it so that you can shorten it up so much that you almost can't help but go w2w. That really helps build confidence in the kiddos & some adults that just can't seem to get there.

I think i've got the progressive edge thing figured out but again without seeing or being with someone who actually knows what they're doing I could be wrong. I'm going about 18mph right now, it feels a bit fast and I have slowed it down to about 16.5mph. This also maybe in part to the lake being fairly choppy. I'm still looking forward to the day when I get to board on glass.

For adults I'd say speed it up a bit to 19-20. That will help narrow up the wake a bit & help float the board a bit more. If I can ask, how big are you & your wife?

I'm 5'8'' 150lbs and the missus is 5'7'' 120lbs. It doesn't take much to get us up and out of the water. The low speeds I was at were purely due to the choppiness and wind, it was just too much to deal with going any faster.

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Yeah I hear you & for surface stuff & just learning how to edge that's great, but if you can handle it then speeding up to 19-20 will really help with the w2w stuff. Plus it will help clean up the wake, it's probably pretty washed out at speeds under 18. If you were heavier then I'd say faster because big guys say that they feel like they're sinking at speeds under 22, but with your size you'll be fine at those speeds.

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Choppy water definitely makes it harder to do anything. Unless your PP is not calibrated right (so that 16.5 is actually something like 18 or 19 mph), 16.5 is too slow for adults, IMO. On our boat, the wake on anything less than 18.5 is just a bubbly, frothy mess. 18.5 is what I pull all of our adult beginners after they learn to get up and stay between the wakes, and nobody has had any problems yet. The wake really starts to clean up at 20 mph or so.

At first, we just used the Pro-X Tube Sac in the middle ski locker. It holds 350 lbs, but in the ski locker we probably only got 300 lbs due to the size constraints of the locker. We actually found that the weight up front worked better if we put it in the bow instead, but often we have other people in the boat so we like to leave the bow open. I just bought a different Pro-X sac, which is 8" by 22" by 62" and holds 400 lbs, which fits better in the ski locker. I bought it on ebay, I think it might be a factory second or something, but it works great in the ski locker.

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A note on your Perfect Pass...there has been discussions about the 23s with the diamond hulls concerning turbulence on the paddle wheel. PP responded with an extention part that extends the paddle wheel down into the water deeper to solve the holding speed problem.

Definately need some extra weight in the bow on that boat when using the wedge and especially with sacks in the back.

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I ordered the tube sac with the tsunami pump so hopefull this will help at least with the PP issue and at best I might be able to reach wake to wake. I got it from Wakeside which seems a really good website. Not really a special deal but they have no tax and $3 3-day shipping which seemed good.

Thanks for the input! Thumbup.gif

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Arkid, I was thinking about this thread when I was out there this weekend. I messed around with the speed and rope length (especially after one of my buddies broke my rope and I had to tie it back together!) to see if I could get the best shaped wake for crossing easier. The best combination seemed to be on the shortest rope, at about 24 mph. This was with my tube sac in the ski locker, and the wedge down. My buddies (one of them being MrCrissy from The Malibu Crew) were doing all kinds of great grabs and crossing both wakes with this setup. I was crossing both wakes and doing the occasional grab (really more like a touch ;) ).

One thing I've noticed about my boat is that the wake doesn't really clean up until about 20-21 mph. Even then one side or the other will be pretty sloppy.

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Arkid, I was thinking about this thread when I was out there this weekend. I messed around with the speed and rope length (especially after one of my buddies broke my rope and I had to tie it back together!) to see if I could get the best shaped wake for crossing easier. The best combination seemed to be on the shortest rope, at about 24 mph. This was with my tube sac in the ski locker, and the wedge down. My buddies (one of them being MrCrissy from The Malibu Crew) were doing all kinds of great grabs and crossing both wakes with this setup. I was crossing both wakes and doing the occasional grab (really more like a touch ;) ).

One thing I've noticed about my boat is that the wake doesn't really clean up until about 20-21 mph. Even then one side or the other will be pretty sloppy.

No way would I recommend beginners going that fast. Oh the pain!

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Arkid, I was thinking about this thread when I was out there this weekend. I messed around with the speed and rope length (especially after one of my buddies broke my rope and I had to tie it back together!) to see if I could get the best shaped wake for crossing easier. The best combination seemed to be on the shortest rope, at about 24 mph. This was with my tube sac in the ski locker, and the wedge down. My buddies (one of them being MrCrissy from The Malibu Crew) were doing all kinds of great grabs and crossing both wakes with this setup. I was crossing both wakes and doing the occasional grab (really more like a touch ;) ).

One thing I've noticed about my boat is that the wake doesn't really clean up until about 20-21 mph. Even then one side or the other will be pretty sloppy.

No way would I recommend beginners going that fast. Oh the pain!

Going to the RAL this month really helped me knowledge wise, and yes 24mph would be way too fast Crazy.gif I would try and make it out to any event possible. The lessons learned will get your further than you can imagine, thinking about it now, I would have paid for all this information now that I know what you can learn being around people that already have the experience I am lacking.

Just my $.02, I've been water skiing for a long time but learned more at the RAL in three days than I have learned in 10 years and this is just water skiing. Just being around people and seeing the form up close is amazing, I learned even more about wakeboarding Yahoo.gif .

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  • 2 weeks later...

So I just got back from Havasu with the new ballast filled and the wedge down.

Now, to really mess things up I also upgraded the PP system and noticed something very strange. I was, on my previous outing, having trouble with my analog speedo being about 5mph slower than what my old PP was displaying. I figured that the anolog was out and needed calibration. After upgrading the PP they both read the same and I confirmed this with a GPS. SO... earlier in this thread where I was assuming I was going around 16.5 - 18 mph I was more than likely going 21 - 23 mph.

Not knowing this I set the new PP to 17 so I was in the ballpark of my last runs & was going waaaaay too slow. I upped the speed to a more comfortable setting and started to go for the wake to wake. Like people said earlier, with the ballast and wedge I was going much higher but not as far. I figure now I need to find that glass to go out on and speed things up to make it across. I couldn't go any faster with the lake being as rough as it was but things are feeling tighter now.

Thanks for all the input! Thumbup.gif

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