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*The DIY Surf Gate Thread*


TrickyNicky

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Jamestown distributors has a video on how to install trim tabs, at the 2:59 minute mark the installer is screwing the actuator to the boat, not bolting it to the boat. Has anyone used screws instead of bolts to mount the actuator?

I used the ss screws included with the mount. After testing out my DIY gates for awhile, the mounts were still rock solid. The screws had pretty aggressive threads (deep).

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martinarcher

I used screws to mount the actuators to both my gates and the hull. Like Tao said, the screws are beefy and stainless. My hinges are screwed in as well with large, long, stainless screws.

One note on the difference between the 102 and 102XD....they are identical, except for the end of the actuator's plunger (where the hole is). On the XD it is stainless, not the polymer material of the 102. I went with the 102's since the actuators won;t ever see the force to merit the XD model.

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XD's have a signifigantly different mounting setup than the "normal" ones. There are some advantages to that setup but you should be aware before you buy. They both use the same mounting hardware on the boat side but the gate side is different. The 102 XDs need a bracket versus the standard hardward. The bracket is easy to make and allows for more adjustment... but the "normal" ones are plug and play with the mounting hardware you find online. IMHO, I would not pay the extra amount for the XDs.

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BTW...I cut the template for my NSS-style setup yesterday. Hoping to mount it and do an in-water test this weekend. I'll post pics and a write-up when I do. Praying this works for my hull as I really want a longer wave and the ability to rapidly switch sides. -Marc

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BTW...I cut the template for my NSS-style setup yesterday. Hoping to mount it and do an in-water test this weekend. I'll post pics and a write-up when I do. Praying this works for my hull as I really want a longer wave and the ability to rapidly switch sides. -Marc

Sweet Marc,

Really excited to see this. What are your templates made of?

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Re the NSS concept.

Anyone experimented with these

http://www.foreandaftmarine.com/VO-QL3841717.htm

They look like they would replicate similar principles

I haven't, but that solution looks very interesting. One of the concerns I have is how far they extend. They don't seem to extend very far (based on the pictures; couldn't find any data indicating exactly how far). My boat has a very rounded transom (from side to back), therefore, I think that to install a NSS system, the gate would need to extend out at least 6 inches.

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Sweet Marc,

Really excited to see this. What are your templates made of?

The templates are simply made of cardboard. I will use those to cut 1/2" wood for my prototype. IF those work.... then I will actually think about some sort of aluminum sheet. Right now I am planning on only 1 in of displacement (horizontal and vertical) and I will see how that works. I have been assurred by people with the NSS installed that they don't come out very far at all.

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I have been assurred by people with the NSS installed that they don't come out very far at all.

Right, for a boat that has a right angle transition from side to transom. For a Malibu that has a gradual curve, the plate would need to be installed quite a distance from the side edge of the boat.

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I haven't, but that solution looks very interesting. One of the concerns I have is how far they extend. They don't seem to extend very far (based on the pictures; couldn't find any data indicating exactly how far). My boat has a very rounded transom (from side to back), therefore, I think that to install a NSS system, the gate would need to extend out at least 6 inches.

Hmmm...6 inches seems like a lot. (please, no wisea$$ remarks)

I would make a plate that matches the curve of your hull exactly. Thus, when you would move it downwards/outwards you would get flow disruption across the whole area. That is how the NSS is working on stepped hulls. I need to look at some of the NSS threads on PlanetNautique again, but I believe the SAN 210 has two steps on the hull. The NSS has the exact same steps and then deploys at an approximately 45 degree angle so you get both vertical and horizontal displacement. JMHO. -Marc

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Right, for a boat that has a right angle transition from side to transom. For a Malibu that has a gradual curve, the plate would need to be installed quite a distance from the side edge of the boat.

I don't think you want just horizontal displacement. If you match the curve you can get both if the actuator is at 45 degrees. Does that make any sense? It's a bit hard to describe. -Marc

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I don't think you want just horizontal displacement. If you match the curve you can get both if the actuator is at 45 degrees. Does that make any sense? It's a bit hard to describe. -Marc

You are thinking of the curve from top to bottom. I am talking about the curve from the side of the hull to the rear (transom). Check out this pic of my boat and you will see the curve in the hull:

100_1160.JPG

The NSS plate would need to sit as far back as the point where the gate in the pic meets the hull, which is about 4 inches from the side edge of the boat. The plate would need to extend 6 inches to come in contact with the flow of water coming down the side of the boat.

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Tao,

I recommend you watch the NSS how to video on: http://www.nautique.com/models/nautique-surf-system?id=93

This boat is somewhat like yours. You have the plate cover the whole area in the left corner of your transom. It would then extend from there both downwards and out wards. I guess this does two things: 1. Delays the convergence 2. Generates lift on that side of the boat which in turn dips the surf side slightly.

If I'm wasting your time, just say so. Communicating via a forum is sometimes difficult. -marc

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High,

Yes, I agree it is difficult to communicate this way!

I did watch that video before, and I just watched it again. Notice the abrupt transition from the side of the hull to the rear. It's like a corner. So the NSS is able to "hide" when retracted and it only has to deploy a short distance to enter the flow of water coming off the side of the boat. Now look at my hull. There is no "corner". Instead, it is very rounded (again, look at the rounded edge coming from the side of the hull to the rear, not from top to bottom). Now imagine the water flowing along the side of the boat as it is traveling through the water at 11mph. The water doesn't wrap around the back following the curvature of the hull. Instead, it flows straight down the side of the hull. I would have to install the NSS gate on the rear transom of the boat (perpendicular to the side of the boat). The leading edge of the gate would need to be about at the point where the surf gate in my picture is attached to the hull. This is approximately 4" from the flow of water passing along the side of the boat. Therefore, the gate would need to extend about 6" to enter that flow of water and delay convergence of the wake.

I understand the concept very well. Unfortunately, I don't think I can explain this adequately. You have to see my hull and envision how the gate has to be installed to not interfere when retracted but also do it's job of delaying the wake convergence when deployed.

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Tao

I finally understand! You are looking at the roundness from a top down perspective. Unfortunately, it's hard to see that in the pic unless you already know it is there. I thought you meant the transition from bottom to side (which is also rounded but would not be a problem) which you can see clearly if you position yourself at the back looking forward.

Yup...that's going to be a problem. I'll try and think about it but I'm not sure there is a solution to that. Maybe a surfgate is the only way to go with that design. -Marc

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martinarcher

Tao,

I recommend you watch the NSS how to video on: http://www.nautique.com/models/nautique-surf-system?id=93

This boat is somewhat like yours. You have the plate cover the whole area in the left corner of your transom. It would then extend from there both downwards and out wards. I guess this does two things: 1. Delays the convergence 2. Generates lift on that side of the boat which in turn dips the surf side slightly.

If I'm wasting your time, just say so. Communicating via a forum is sometimes difficult. -marc

Does Nautique claim that the NSS delays wake convergence? I know it creates lift on the non surf side, but I wouldn't think it would delay convergence near like the surf gate.

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Yes. The assertion is that it does the same thing. Even weighting, flat boat. It's not being sold as a quick way to tip the boat.

Both nss and SG are going to cause the boat to crab a little, right?

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Tao

I finally understand! You are looking at the roundness from a top down perspective. Unfortunately, it's hard to see that in the pic unless you already know it is there. I thought you meant the transition from bottom to side (which is also rounded but would not be a problem) which you can see clearly if you position yourself at the back looking forward.

Yup...that's going to be a problem. I'll try and think about it but I'm not sure there is a solution to that. Maybe a surfgate is the only way to go with that design. -Marc

I understood this from the start as I have the same curve in my hull and considered it to be a problem too. BUT if you really think about it, I'm not so sure it's a problem. The slowest sport is surfing, if you estimate the flow-line of water as it leaves the side of the boat and past the transom than you could install the NSS gate so it extends that far when NOT deployed. Therefore you may have a gate overhanging the curve section of the corner but not the actual width of the boat (or flow of water). It would only interfere with water flow at very slow speeds and if I can be abrupt, well who cares. Than when it is extended (the same displacement as NSS could be used, say 2" or so) it should create the same effects as the real NSS. At faster speeds and in stow mode it won't have any effect at all. The only downside I see is you'll have little gate edges sticking out to the side (parallel to the transom) but not extending past the curve which would be a little unsightly but a small eyesore when you consider surfgate as a whole.

And yes this is very difficult to explain in words.

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I understood this from the start as I have the same curve in my hull and considered it to be a problem too. BUT if you really think about it, I'm not so sure it's a problem. The slowest sport is surfing, if you estimate the flow-line of water as it leaves the side of the boat and past the transom than you could install the NSS gate so it extends that far when NOT deployed. Therefore you may have a gate overhanging the curve section of the corner but not the actual width of the boat (or flow of water). It would only interfere with water flow at very slow speeds and if I can be abrupt, well who cares. Than when it is extended (the same displacement as NSS could be used, say 2" or so) it should create the same effects as the real NSS. At faster speeds and in stow mode it won't have any effect at all. The only downside I see is you'll have little gate edges sticking out to the side (parallel to the transom) but not extending past the curve which would be a little unsightly but a small eyesore when you consider surfgate as a whole.

And yes this is very difficult to explain in words.

I see what you are saying. It would take a lot of trial & error to figure out the optimum position, though. One that would not interfere on the surf side (retracted) but would extend far enough out when extended to delay wake convergence on the non-surf side. The Volvo tabs could be used along with a plate to mount it to (plate mounted to transom to extend out to that optimum position & then tab attached to the end of that). I think that is the only option for us since the amount of transom in that corner (created by swim platform, swim platform mount, side of boat, and bottom of boat) is very limited. What I don't like about the Volvo tabs is that it is just a straight line. As with NSS, I think the extending plate needs to be the same shape as the hull (angled and curved) and needs to extend out to the side as well as down. A lot to figure out!!

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Yes a LOT to figure out indeed. If I ere to try the volvo tabs I would probably try to replace the tabs with home made ones that were the shape of the outline of the hull. But I would also consider using Lenco minimal space actuators and mounting them parallel on the transom and make some type of slider gate. I think Nautique did a great job with the packaging of NSS but as DIY project I see soo much potential for things getting jammed up or sliding against the boat and scratching it. I've just never had much confidence in sliding mechanisms (unless they slide on water or snow). It's been a difficult one to think through. Thankfully I'm not going that route anyways.

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Just a side note (not relating to the above conversation). I was out on the lake yesterday and saw a 04 LSV with "surfgate". The guy had taken his boat to a fabricator and cut and shaped his Swimstep to look like the new swimsteps (still had the cut out for the manual wedge), made tabs, and switches up on the dash. Looked very clean. Only difference is the Swimstep was not raised, so the tabs were higher than the step by a few inches, and he had to manually deploy vs automatic. Cost was around 5k. Would have thought it was factory just looking at it. He said he came in the forums every now and then, maybe he'll pop on.

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Got a chance to try a protype of my NSS style system. It was a sucess! The only problem is that my lake is so low I can't work on the boat while it sits on the boat lift and the mod can't be put on if the boat is on the trailer. Thus, I don't have pictures. I pretty much had to do the install while it was sitting in the water. As soon as the lake comes up I can put the boat on the lift and snap a few picks.

Setup: I took a cardboard cutout of my hull and cut a 1/2 piece of plywood in the same shape. I then placed the wood a 1/2" down and 1" out past the hull line. I couldn't do it on the trailer because the boat is slightly shorter than the trailer so you can't place it below the boat hull or it would run into one of the bunks.. Once I had it placed where I wanted, I put a couple of scrap 2x4 pieces (6 inches long) against it and made sure the 2x4s were touching the 1/2 piece as well as tucked up against my swim deck. I then held the contraption together with my hands and took it out of the water. I then srewed the 1/2" piece to the 2x4 pieces so that I had one "solid" piece of wood that was aproximately 3.5 inches wide. (The 2x4s are simply used to brace the 1/2 pice against the hull, but the 1/2 piece was the only part that extended past the hull line) I then drilled a couple of holes thru my wood swim deck and screwed the whole thing against the swim deck. Since it was already sitting flush against the hull, I now had a "permanent" test bed. I weighted the boat about 60/40 to the surfside and grabbed two friends.

How it ran: My first observation was that even though it was "deployed" all the time, there wasn't as much steering issues as my surfgate style prototype. As we got up to speed you could see that the wake convergence was clearly delayed. A little water was coming over the top of the extention but it didn't seem to be a real issue. The wave had a nice curl to it and was pretty clean. I surfed my slowest and most stable board (Hyperlite landlock) and it had plenty of push. The weight was slightly less than what I might normally use but I have been making some changes with my ballast system as well, so it's a bit hard to tell. I ran out of time because of some other things going on, so I never had a chance to try going further out with the 1/2 piece, nor trying to weigh the boat evenly.

Next steps: I probably won't be doing too much until our lake comes up and I can spend a whole day fitting various combinations and doing test runs. I really need to see how it works on the port side since the prop turns right and I have always had a decent goofy wave (which is what I used for the test). I want to try evenly weighting the boat and a slight extension of the wood. I would also like to try build some sort of sliding mechanism so I could test a lot of different combos quickly. It would also help prototype what I would need to do if I was going to make this something more than just a bolt on "static" device. Right now I must admit....there is very little hull area to work with. The surfgates don't take up that much room. The NSS style system needs to have a whole area for the slide to be attached as well an actuator. On an older Ski Nautique like I have, there simply is not a lot of room. This summer I will probably just work on getting a good system that works on both side that is easily removable. If I have enough success I will then move on to the automation phase.

Again, I apologize for having no pics but I will post them as soon as I can take a picture of the sytem when it's not in the water and almost hidden from view. -Marc

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Got a chance to try a protype of my NSS style system. It was a sucess! The only problem is that my lake is so low I can't work on the boat while it sits on the boat lift and the mod can't be put on if the boat is on the trailer. Thus, I don't have pictures. I pretty much had to do the install while it was sitting in the water. As soon as the lake comes up I can put the boat on the lift and snap a few picks.

Setup: I took a cardboard cutout of my hull and cut a 1/2 piece of plywood in the same shape. I then placed the wood a 1/2" down and 1" out past the hull line. I couldn't do it on the trailer because the boat is slightly shorter than the trailer so you can't place it below the boat hull or it would run into one of the bunks.. Once I had it placed where I wanted, I put a couple of scrap 2x4 pieces (6 inches long) against it and made sure the 2x4s were touching the 1/2 piece as well as tucked up against my swim deck. I then held the contraption together with my hands and took it out of the water. I then srewed the 1/2" piece to the 2x4 pieces so that I had one "solid" piece of wood that was aproximately 3.5 inches wide. (The 2x4s are simply used to brace the 1/2 pice against the hull, but the 1/2 piece was the only part that extended past the hull line) I then drilled a couple of holes thru my wood swim deck and screwed the whole thing against the swim deck. Since it was already sitting flush against the hull, I now had a "permanent" test bed. I weighted the boat about 60/40 to the surfside and grabbed two friends.

How it ran: My first observation was that even though it was "deployed" all the time, there wasn't as much steering issues as my surfgate style prototype. As we got up to speed you could see that the wake convergence was clearly delayed. A little water was coming over the top of the extention but it didn't seem to be a real issue. The wave had a nice curl to it and was pretty clean. I surfed my slowest and most stable board (Hyperlite landlock) and it had plenty of push. The weight was slightly less than what I might normally use but I have been making some changes with my ballast system as well, so it's a bit hard to tell. I ran out of time because of some other things going on, so I never had a chance to try going further out with the 1/2 piece, nor trying to weigh the boat evenly.

Next steps: I probably won't be doing too much until our lake comes up and I can spend a whole day fitting various combinations and doing test runs. I really need to see how it works on the port side since the prop turns right and I have always had a decent goofy wave (which is what I used for the test). I want to try evenly weighting the boat and a slight extension of the wood. I would also like to try build some sort of sliding mechanism so I could test a lot of different combos quickly. It would also help prototype what I would need to do if I was going to make this something more than just a bolt on "static" device. Right now I must admit....there is very little hull area to work with. The surfgates don't take up that much room. The NSS style system needs to have a whole area for the slide to be attached as well an actuator. On an older Ski Nautique like I have, there simply is not a lot of room. This summer I will probably just work on getting a good system that works on both side that is easily removable. If I have enough success I will then move on to the automation phase.

Again, I apologize for having no pics but I will post them as soon as I can take a picture of the sytem when it's not in the water and almost hidden from view. -Marc

Great work HA,

Any comparisons between this and your DIY surfgate? As for the space limitation, I would definitly be looking at some of the limited space actuators from lenco when you do get to the automation phase. Also, we need pics!

I got my wiring and switches in place and hooked to power, next weekend I'll be installing the actual gates and actuators as I'm waiting for the hinges to arrive.

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Tricky,

No comparision between the surfgate and the NSS style system. The surfgate just didn't work for me at all. I think the major reason is the stepped hull. I'm not going to kid anybody...a closed bow ski nautique is never going to be a G23 or LSV but I thought the surfgate would improve things. It didn't and it was mostly due to where I had to place the gate. I have about a six inch cutout on the bottom of my hull. If you put the gate on the very end, it only is in the water for about 3 inches. Obviously, that's a non starter. If you move it in, you get 3-4 inches of extra depth but you miss everything coming off the edge. The NSS is a better system for a stepped hull IMHO.

I agree on both the need to get pics and to use the limited space actuators. What switches did you use? -Marc

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HA-

On an aside here if you ever choose to try the SG again than maybe my "hockey stick" approach I tried to explain would work. It really depends on what you mean by step. I'd really like to see the step as I'm having trouble picturing how the NSS would be using making full use when deployed.

I used the rocker switches, $70 vs $2-300 and they fit nicely into my dash :yahoo: . Take a look at my boathouse pictures if you'd like.

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