New 23 for 2014?!?!

[wakeboarder3780]

From what I've heard they will be adding the transom seating to the new LSV...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Let me get this straight. Malibu is going to sacrifice locker size in a trade-off for "transom seating" which you can't even legally sit on while underway and the only use case it supports is just "chilling out on the back of the boat while the kids play"? Isn't this 100% AGAINST what a wakeboat should be? We're sacrificing the ability to load up ballast (and be able to easily work on the engine) in a pro wakeboat for functionality of a swim raft? All I have to say if this is true is "wtf malibu".

Edit: Furthermore if they're hell bent on adding this feature - why do storage tubs have to invade the rear lockers? Put the storage in the middle so it invades nothing (look at the g23) or don't put storage in at all! If you want to add transom seating WHY does that mean the hatches need to be pizza box sized? If *I* can look at and realize, wow you could have just integrated the seats such that the hatch size wasn't affected why can't malibu?

So frustrated with malibu's design team right now...

Edited May 16, 2013 by wakeboarder3780

[bamabonners]

I hear ya 3780, but most of the time that I see wakeboard boats on my lake they are sitting still with people swimming and drinking on the back. I feel like the only one that actually uses my boat around here sometimes.

[CJAY]

You can take the storage tubs out if you feel they take up too much space. The nice part is more for when you're hanging out on the lake.

[wakeboarder3780]

Yeah I thought of removing the storage tubs too but then you just have a random hole if someone opens the hatch up (acceptable but not ideal IMO). The think that really irks me is the ridiculously small hatch opening.

Whatever, G23 for me next time around. The G23 is more like the 06 LSV design (big lockers and lots of storage) but they took the design up a couple notches with even bigger lockers (with big openings), more storage space, and they did some nice things like hide batteries under the floor so you can actually use that storage area behind the observers chair instead of loading it up with your dual battery setup.

Different strokes for different folks obviously, I'm just sad to see malibu add a boat to the lineup to add "options" for the buyer - but then turn around and imprint the worst design decision (small hatch openings, small lockers) in all of their boats. You want swim deck seating? Fine. Add it in a way that doesn't sacrifice the lockers. Go back to the drawing board is my advice and IMPROVE the seating in the LSV instead of just a "hack and dump" of the concept.

Edit: Also, bama that's a very sad statement. Not to say that people can't use their boats how they want - that's fine. But for any boat in the top 3 to drift away from core riding features to appeal to a leisure boat crowd is unacceptable in my book. There are wakeboarding boats and there are leisure boats. Yes the concepts can cross pollinate but the second a pro level wakeboard boat manufacturer appeals to the leisure crowd OVER the riding crowd you have sacrificed your brand name IMO.

Edited May 16, 2013 by wakeboarder3780

[85 Barefoot]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Let me get this straight. Malibu is going to sacrifice locker size in a trade-off for "transom seating" which you can't even legally sit on while underway and the only use case it supports is just "chilling out on the back of the boat while the kids play"? Isn't this 100% AGAINST what a wakeboat should be? We're sacrificing the ability to load up ballast (and be able to easily work on the engine) in a pro wakeboat for functionality of a swim raft? All I have to say if this is true is "wtf malibu".

Edit: Furthermore if they're hell bent on adding this feature - why do storage tubs have to invade the rear lockers? Put the storage in the middle so it invades nothing (look at the g23) or don't put storage in at all! If you want to add transom seating WHY does that mean the hatches need to be pizza box sized? If *I* can look at and realize, wow you could have just integrated the seats such that the hatch size wasn't affected why can't malibu?

So frustrated with malibu's design team right now...

how is that possible without pushing the engine forward?

[Nitrousbird]

Malibu is not the first company to go with transom seating. I think it is a cool feature and would be a selling point to me.

Because nothing in Malibu's lineup is the size of a barge (G23/25) you can't do a few of the things done there. I'm one of those folks with very mixed opinions on the G. I think it is a little big and akward looking but not enough that I hate it. I do hate the fake teak and it looks cheap in person. I think the Nautiques have one of the worst dashes in the industry (Pavati having the worst dash by a significant margin). I also think they are overpriced. I do think some of the inovations in the boat are cool, including the walk-through transom setup (though there is that water coming over it issue), cooler in the floor, location of the battery switch is sweet, massive stock ballast, some of the seating features and glove box design.

[mrnate450r]

I wonder what the percentage of buyers out there are "sacking out" these boats all of the time. The small difference that seat makes in extra ballast is worth it IMO. Also, these people that are "sacking out" these boats should worry about the storage aspect anyway. Once you fill the sack there is no storage anyway. So what would you do if you had stuff in the lockers and then decide to fill up? Throw it all in the cockpit? I guess I'm getting old and I can't board all day, so we spend time hanging out on the platform. Point being, they have to market these boats to families or they wouldn't sell as many. I guess you guys haven't wrenched on many 18' I/O's. Its not fun, but it can be done!

[Falko]

I see the inboard guys losing market share to the "waked-up" I/O's. I just saw an ad for Monterrey that stated "the best watersports boat". It was just their 23' I/O with a tower (and hard top which was intriguing), few gallons of ballast (not sure what that does when your deadrise is already 20deg) and a graphics package. Those are the boats cutting into the market as they are $ignificantly less expensive, but offer more "features" to people who would fall for such marketing. The inboard guys have to offer these main stream features to the families that see rear seating and huge storage as necessary (yeah, I would like to see more storage myself, though). I would like to see two different series though, hardcore and sport.

[wakeboarder3780]

For clarity, I'm not asking malibu to make a "barge" boat. I'm asking them to keep the hatch size they've always had in the 23 LSV. I view the 23 LSV and the G23 as the comparable models of the two brands.

As far as the "percentage of people sacking out their boats" comment. You have to understand that my assumption is malibu wants to be looked at as having one of the top 3 pro model wakeboats in the industry. In light of that assumption your question *should* be irrelevant for at least one of their models of boats.

If you favor your line of logic, to be fair you would change your comment to "how many people actually sac out their boat OR actually work on the engine". If you look at earlier posts in this thread I'm not the only one who recognize how much of a pain in the a** it is to work on a boat with that hatch setup - I'm just the most active (the loudmouth). To me, being able to maintain my boat is paramount. If you work on cars you'd understand as well as that industry has the same analogous situations. Maybe some people just think it won't be a big deal until they own it for a while, or maybe most people just pay a dealer to change their oil but.. my suspicion is you're going to have a lot of MXZ (and now LSV) owners crabbin about how much of a PITA it is to do normal stuff to the engine.

My GOAL is to voice my opinion that it is paramount that a successful boat brand keeps their boats easy to maintain when at all possible so when I buy it up I dont have to be a contortionist to change my oil filter Not to dig on moomba, but for example, have you ever changed oil on an early 2000 moomba LSV? The oil filter is in a nearly impossible location to get at and it's just "accepted" that you will have to install an oil filter relocation kit if you want to change oil yourself on the boat. I always viewed malibu's prime location of oil filters to be insight in that direction. These rear locker setups do not jive with that mentality.

[85 Barefoot]

For clarity, I'm not asking malibu to make a "barge" boat. I'm asking them to keep the hatch size they've always had in the 23 LSV. I view the 23 LSV and the G23 as the comparable models of the two brands.

As far as the "percentage of people sacking out their boats" comment. You have to understand that my assumption is malibu wants to be looked at as having one of the top 3 pro model wakeboats in the industry. In light of that assumption your question *should* be irrelevant for at least one of their models of boats.

If you favor your line of logic, to be fair you would change your comment to "how many people actually sac out their boat OR actually work on the engine". If you look at earlier posts in this thread I'm not the only one who recognize how much of a pain in the a** it is to work on a boat with that hatch setup - I'm just the most active (the loudmouth). To me, being able to maintain my boat is paramount. If you work on cars you'd understand as well as that industry has the same analogous situations. Maybe some people just think it won't be a big deal until they own it for a while, or maybe most people just pay a dealer to change their oil but.. my suspicion is you're going to have a lot of MXZ (and now LSV) owners crabbin about how much of a PITA it is to do normal stuff to the engine.

My GOAL is to voice my opinion that it is paramount that a successful boat brand keeps their boats easy to maintain when at all possible so when I buy it up I dont have to be a contortionist to change my oil filter Not to dig on moomba, but for example, have you ever changed oil on an early 2000 moomba LSV? The oil filter is in a nearly impossible location to get at and it's just "accepted" that you will have to install an oil filter relocation kit if you want to change oil yourself on the boat. I always viewed malibu's prime location of oil filters to be insight in that direction. These rear locker setups do not jive with that mentality.

I don't see the 23 being the G23's counterpart at all. Clearly an MXZis far more comparable, in my opinion.

As for the what, 100#'s of less ballast taken up by the seat shape, there are 2 types of people who may care about that: 1) pros 2) Total newbs who think that 100#'s less of ballast will affect their riding. For anyone in between, ain't no one going to notice.

As for ease of maintenance including oil changes, all vdrive malibus come with remote oil filter which doesn't even require you to get in a hatch in the first place. There is PLENTY of room to get to the drain hose. Plugs are easily accessible, winterization items still easily accessible. I just really fail to understand your gripe.

Edited May 16, 2013 by 85 Barefoot

[Nitrousbird]

Dude, all vdrive malibus come with remote oil filter.

Maybe the do now. I can assure you they didn't in 2001.

[85 Barefoot]

Maybe the do now. I can assure you they didn't in 2001.

That is correct...it is a 2014 thread right?

[wakeboarder3780]

I don't know what you mean by "remote" oil filter but I do need to be in the starboard side locker in my 06 to change it. Where is the oil filter now? Under the rear bench seat by the vdrive?

Even if the oil filter is in a prime location they cant move the DRAIN PLUGS dude. Do you live in an area where you need to do spring and fall winterizing on a daily basis? I know you love to argue on the forums, but please don't tell me you don't "understand" my gripe. You do understand it, it is valid, and you just have a different weighting of opinion on the variables (you don't have the same issue) and you know what, that's fine with me. Just don't say you "dont understand" my gripe. You do, and so do other people on the forum.

[Nitrousbird]

I see the inboard guys losing market share to the "waked-up" I/O's. I just saw an ad for Monterrey that stated "the best watersports boat". It was just their 23' I/O with a tower (and hard top which was intriguing), few gallons of ballast (not sure what that does when your deadrise is already 20deg) and a graphics package. Those are the boats cutting into the market as they are $ignificantly less expensive, but offer more "features" to people who would fall for such marketing.

I disagree on the less expensive AND cutting into the market.

Monterey lets you build boats on their website with MSRP pricing. Their Sport boat models once you put just 350 motor and tower/racks MSRP to what the budget wakeboat brands MSRP for while having less standard features and very obviously a lower build quality. You can up the quality by going to the M-series of their boats but the price is insane...like over 100k insane for those things. They sure aren't beating the wakeboats in price.

Also, the wakeboat industry has prices going up every year and still seem to be selling very well. The jet boat builders have also been trying to get into the wakeboat industy as they are generally selling at a bit lower of a price point. But are they really stealing customers or taking customer's that couldn't have afforded their way into an inboard? Just stepping into a Moomba vs. most of these fake wakeboats the quality difference is very obvious even to those that don't know anything about boats.

Let's not forget surfing, a watesport that has been growing a lot in the past couple of years. Can't be doing that behind these I/O's. People in their I/O's are out and see people doing that. They want to do it to, inquire about it, find out their boat isn't capable, then trade in their fake wakeboat for a real inboard.

[mrnate450r]

Malibu's goal is to sell more boats, right? Somebody must think the trade off is worth it for the transom seats. This argument is based off of one members speculation. Has anyone actually confirmed this is happening? I assure you that the people designing these boats have the hardcore boarder AND the family boating crews in mind. The challenge is finding the right mix of both to maximize sales and share.

[TallRedRider]

Malibu's goal is to sell more boats, right? Somebody must think the trade off is worth it for the transom seats. This argument is based off of one members speculation. Has anyone actually confirmed this is happening? I assure you that the people designing these boats have the hardcore boarder AND the family boating crews in mind. The challenge is finding the right mix of both to maximize sales and share.

It is a tough balance. Because I think the majority of the purchasers are not core wakeboarders, but the majority of the promoters of the boats are. Most of these boats are purchased for families who want to be able to do it, but really aren't core riders. It is a tough balance.

[85 Barefoot]

I don't know what you mean by "remote" oil filter but I do need to be in the starboard side locker in my 06 to change it. Where is the oil filter now? Under the rear bench seat by the vdrive?

Even if the oil filter is in a prime location they cant move the DRAIN PLUGS dude. Do you live in an area where you need to do spring and fall winterizing on a daily basis? I know you love to argue on the forums, but please don't tell me you don't "understand" my gripe. You do understand it, it is valid, and you just have a different weighting of opinion on the variables (you don't have the same issue) and you know what, that's fine with me. Just don't say you "dont understand" my gripe. You do, and so do other people on the forum.

The remote oil filter is where it has been mounted for several years, which is on the top of the engine. You don't even bend over to change the filter and I don't even step in the compartment.

As for drain plugs, no, I don't understand your gripe, sorry you're taking that so hard. You still have full access to the freeze plugs. It's been a few months since I crawled around an MXZ but my recollection was that you lay down in the compartment, feet under seating, to access alternator, impeller, etc. I really fail to see the issue, sorry.

When was the last time you crawled around the engine bay of an MXZ? G23?

Edited May 16, 2013 by 85 Barefoot

[Falko]

I disagree on the less expensive AND cutting into the market.

Monterey lets you build boats on their website with MSRP pricing. Their Sport boat models once you put just 350 motor and tower/racks MSRP to what the budget wakeboat brands MSRP for while having less standard features and very obviously a lower build quality. You can up the quality by going to the M-series of their boats but the price is insane...like over 100k insane for those things. They sure aren't beating the wakeboats in price.

Also, the wakeboat industry has prices going up every year and still seem to be selling very well. The jet boat builders have also been trying to get into the wakeboat industy as they are generally selling at a bit lower of a price point. But are they really stealing customers or taking customer's that couldn't have afforded their way into an inboard? Just stepping into a Moomba vs. most of these fake wakeboats the quality difference is very obvious even to those that don't know anything about boats.

Let's not forget surfing, a watesport that has been growing a lot in the past couple of years. Can't be doing that behind these I/O's. People in their I/O's are out and see people doing that. They want to do it to, inquire about it, find out their boat isn't capable, then trade in their fake wakeboat for a real inboard.

I would agree it doesn't take long to ramp up the price, but most I/O's sell for no where near MSRP. It is nothing for a $100k I/O drop $20k at a boat show. Watching the lake over the last couple years , there have been less IB's and more of these fakeboard boats running around. I think they are cutting into the market pretty hard. And you are definitely on with the jet boats, those are creeping up in numbers.

[TrickyNicky]

I DO understand your gripe, but your dreaming in technicolour my friend.

Malibu is in the business of making boats. and yes they make some of the best wakeboats on the market but there design philosophy is not to make the best possible wakeboat. Nor is that the philosophy of any other wakeboat manufacturer that I know of, including the infamous G. If they were making the best possible wake boats to please the pros, there would be NO storage and ballast bags wouldn't exist. Thyere certainly wouldn't be open-bow wakeboats as it would just be one big 1500 lb ballast tank. Have you ever watched a video of a pro where they use the bow.... for people?

There philosophy is to make money and to do that they need to sell as many boats as possible to as large of a market as possible.Personally I love the transom seats because I'm always sitting on the back when people are surfing. And to be honest I don't mind the lost 100 lbs of ballast because I have jackets sitting in my hatches anyways (usually on top of my 750). As for the engine wrenching, not many people buying a new boat (directly from malibu) are ever going to change there oil let alone anything else. Once the boats are purchased they will sell again and again to new buyers that may wrench on there engine but probably won't be picky enough to switch brands based on the size of the hatches.

We own our "wakeboat" because I wanted a ski boat and there was no way a DD that sits 5 people under tow was going to cut it for our cottage weekends of 30+. On our lake there are 3 inboards and 20+ boats with towers. I probably see MAX 5 of them EVER tow a person all year round and if so it's usually a tuber or very beginner wakeboarder or skier. Last week a guy came down to the city ramp on the river with his brand new nautique and I made a surfing joke, He was clueless! Thought I was talking about the ocean. The market for these boats is wealthy families, not the die hard rider. We should all be grateful they keep advancing the sporting aspect at all. On the contrary look at a proper ski boat, usually bought by serious slalom skiers because the family men switched over to v-drives.

On the other note, I do think they definitely should find a way to keep the openings larger while keeping the transom seat. Don't really care to investigate on how, but I'm sure it can be done quite easily.

Edited May 16, 2013 by TrickyNicky

[wakeboarder3780]

The remote oil filter is where it has been mounted for several years, which is on the top of the engine. You don't even bend over to change the filter and I don't even step in the compartment.

As for drain plugs, no, I don't understand your gripe, sorry you're taking that so hard. You still have full access to the freeze plugs. It's been a few months since I crawled around an MXZ but my recollection was that you lay down in the compartment, feet under seating, to access alternator, impeller, etc. I really fail to see the issue, sorry.

When was the last time you crawled around the engine bay of an MXZ? G23?

Weird - would you mind snapping a pic of the oil filter location? It comes stock on all boats as of what year?

As for the last time I crawled around in the lockers / engine bay of the MXZ and G23 it was the milwaukee boat show this year. I'm not sure why you're insinuating I haven't seeing as how I snapped all the pictures of the boats that were right in front of me. And I'm not taking anything hard - you're well known for how you behave on this forum I understand you're just you being you. I'm a programmer and I just like being explicit. You understand but you don't agree.

TrickyNicky, +1 It would be trivial for them to keep bigger hatches and the rear seats.

[TrickyNicky]

I rebuttle, It would be nice if there was no solid member/beam in between the rear transom seat/hatch and the regular rear hatch. that way you could open either easily and they would not be heavy or open both and have full entry access. Keep in mind I've never seen a MXZ so I don't know how they are currently setup. Do they both open? Do they both open to the same locker? Which direction do they open?

[Tims]

Weird - would you mind snapping a pic of the oil filter location? It comes stock on all boats as of what year?

As for the last time I crawled around in the lockers / engine bay of the MXZ and G23 it was the milwaukee boat show this year. I'm not sure why you're insinuating I haven't seeing as how I snapped all the pictures of the boats that were right in front of me. And I'm not taking anything hard - you're well known for how you behave on this forum I understand you're just you being you. I'm a programmer and I just like being explicit. You understand but you don't agree.

TrickyNicky, +1 It would be trivial for them to keep bigger hatches and the rear seats.

I service my own boat (2012 VLX) and I dont understand how anyone can replace the remote filter without crawling into the rear locker area unless you dont care about oil spilling into your bilge. While the remote filter is in a better location than at the bottom of the engine, it was not thought out very well, as the filter is tucked too close to the engine. (You have to be pretty creative to prevent oil from spilling.)

Point is, I can't fathom having a smaller area to work in and can totally see where you are coming from. Every time I work on my boat I come out with a knotted head and higher blood pressure.

[85 Barefoot]

Weird - would you mind snapping a pic of the oil filter location? It comes stock on all boats as of what year?

As for the last time I crawled around in the lockers / engine bay of the MXZ and G23 it was the milwaukee boat show this year. I'm not sure why you're insinuating I haven't seeing as how I snapped all the pictures of the boats that were right in front of me. And I'm not taking anything hard - you're well known for how you behave on this forum I understand you're just you being you. I'm a programmer and I just like being explicit. You understand but you don't agree.

TrickyNicky, +1 It would be trivial for them to keep bigger hatches and the rear seats.

Prolly around 3-4 years ago.

I'm not insinuating anything, I simply asked when the last time you were in them was as it was ME who conceded it had been a few months since I was in order to compare to YOUR observations...read your posts again man, you're taking something hard and the vitriol is only going one direction!

Per the last time I crawled around an MXZ, again, I do not understand your gripe as access was not an issue. What could you not get to? Please post your pictures of the MXZ and G23 engine bays, perhaps that will help.

Edited May 16, 2013 by 85 Barefoot

[85 Barefoot]

I service my own boat (2012 VLX) and I dont understand how anyone can replace the remote filter without crawling into the rear locker area unless you dont care about oil spilling into your bilge. While the remote filter is in a better location than at the bottom of the engine, it was not thought out very well, as the filter is tucked too close to the engine. (You have to be pretty creative to prevent oil from spilling.)

Point is, I can't fathom having a smaller area to work in and can totally see where you are coming from. Every time I work on my boat I come out with a knotted head and higher blood pressure.

I'm pretty sure I stay on the cabin side, use a 2 liter bottom and/or zip lock and/or grocery bag depending on the exact setup, all of which are a tad different by model of course. Every design combination will have its relative access advantages and disadvantages to the oil filter. Point is, removing a filter on an MXZ is still way easier than removing filter on anything 5 years ago.

[Nitrousbird]

I would agree it doesn't take long to ramp up the price, but most I/O's sell for no where near MSRP. It is nothing for a $100k I/O drop $20k at a boat show. Watching the lake over the last couple years , there have been less IB's and more of these fakeboard boats running around. I think they are cutting into the market pretty hard. And you are definitely on with the jet boats, those are creeping up in numbers.

Inboards sell no where near MSRP in most cases as well. I'm seeing the exact opposite, more inboards than ever before. I'm also seeing a lot less jet boats...the funny thing is I/O's and Jet Boats are easier to obtain here yet I'm seeing an increase in wakeboats. This I am sure is at least partly to do with where I boat (water than bans lake lice and tubing), but I've noticed it there. But even when I boat at a couple other places I'm seeing inboards where I never recall seeing them previously (and I had inboard envy for a long time before getting one so I was paying attention).