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No Start...Again '03 VLX


saskicker32

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Howdy All,

 

After changing the starter relays only hours before Wake the World last month the boat started and ran solidly all day. This Saturday I am taking some friends out, launch the boat, starts right up. I pull out of 5 mph zone and give it some gas (has been idling for a couple minutes to warm up), and it starts to accelerate and then decelerates and then accelerates again, basically surging back and forth and then dies. I restart it and head back to the launch ramp. I leave it running for about another ten minutes at the dock and I pull the transmission pin at the throttle and try to give it gas in neutral and the same surging happens (but doesn't die). I then let it run for about two minutes more and it just died while at idle. At this time I tell my friend to grab my truck and let's call it a day. I restart and was able to pull onto my trailer no problem.

 

My theory is it has to be something fuel related. It cranks and starts no problem which eliminates starter/battery/electrical issues. I replaced the inline filter yesterday, then when trying to prime it with gas I noticed I didn't hear the usual fuel pump noise. I heard something from around it's location but it was different. I'm worried it's possibly a fuel pump and I am not sure where I can source one. I also was reading through here and see everyone mention a fuel screen at the pump inlet. I pulled the fuel line off the pump (cylindric aluminum looking housing) and it has a flared end very similar to the Wix 33299 inline filter and I didn't see an filter screen whatsoever, I was using my flashlight and my phones camera as a mirror of sorts and it looked just like the inside of the inline filter. I was hoping I could clean that out and maybe that was the problem. I also wanted to pull the return line (closer to the centerline of the boat) off and inspect it but man that thing was not going to budge off of it's fitting, same goes for the lines connected to the fuel tank itself, I think I'll have to cut up the hose to get them off.

 

I also ordered a cap and rotor, plugs, and plug wires because I figured it's best to do maintenance early than late and maybe that'll help my little problem and least a little.

 

Just wanted to hear your guy's thoughts, I have a big labor day houseboat trip planned!

 

Thanks!

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Intermittent could mean a wiring issue. Did you disconnect the battery when you changed the starter relays? If so, I'd try disconnecting the battery again when the problem happens (to troubleshoot) and see if it makes a difference.

Is there any way it could be bad gas or water in the tank?

Are you sure there's not another fuel filter you don't know about. I've read it on here before.

If nota, prob the fuel pump.

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3 hours ago, Bozboat said:

have you checked the fuel pressure?

 

 

Snagged a fuel pressure gauge from o'reilly's today and plan on doing that this evening!

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Well plugged the fuel pressure gauge in and turn the key to on...and hear nothing from the fuel pump and get 0 psi on the gauge... I then proceded to pull the pump out (which for reference is a pierburg 02t287 also had 7.21659.02 number on it). I put it to a jumper pack and it immediately spooled up and squirt gas out of it so I can eliminate a bad pump. I'm now to it being electrical. I cleaned the connections on the pump itself. When I replaced the starter relay I decided to replace all three relays so the pump relay is new as well. I'm not sure where to go with this.

Edited by saskicker32
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Have you double-checked the safety lanyard?  Surging aside, couldn't an intermittent connection to the safety lanyard do this?  Just trying to eliminate the easy/obvious.  You didn't say specifically, but do you have power to the gauges right now at keyup?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pwzdf3dwp5cbshe/005 No Start Troubleshooting revised.docx?dl=0

I'm no expert but at this point I'd check power to the relay, if it's getting power it's the wiring downstream to the pump or a bad relay/contacts at the relay socket; if no power at the relay then I'd be praying it's not the dreaded ECM...

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9 hours ago, saskicker32 said:

Well plugged the fuel pressure gauge in and turn the key to on...and hear nothing from the fuel pump and get 0 psi on the gauge... I then proceded to pull the pump out (which for reference is a pierburg 02t287 also had 7.21659.02 number on it). I put it to a jumper pack and it immediately spooled up and squirt gas out of it so I can eliminate a bad pump. I'm now to it being electrical. I cleaned the connections on the pump itself. When I replaced the starter relay I decided to replace all three relays so the pump relay is new as well. I'm not sure where to go with this.

I'm not sure you can eliminate your pump being bad.  Mine was intermittent a couple times before I replaced it 4 years ago, good ever since.

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Alright so an update for ya'll. I have done away with the kill switch lanyard awhile ago and connected them together. I cleaned those wires and reconnected. I then started the engine (it did start but it was on the trailer so I immediatley killed it). I did a few other miscellaneous thigns to the boat I had neglected (mount an amp, etc.). I think want to start it up once more before I leave. I try to start it and it won't start, I key it up to "on" a few times and then try to start it again, I got like one spark to fire and then just back to cranking. I then took a test light to the fuel pump but was kind difficult because I knew that there'd only be power to the pump for the 2 seconds after key on. It must have looked comical because I'd turn the key and run back there. I didn't hear the pump prime or see the test light on. But I did hear like 3 click noises for those two seconds and then silence. I couldn't quite isolate the click noises directly to the pump but they could have been. This is making me go back to the idea the pump is just going bad (even though on the jumper it worked no problem). I didn't have a chance to test power at the relay (does anyone have a good how to on this? I was looking at some youtube videos on relays but not totally confident). 

 

If it is the pump, what's the best place to source a new one? Bakes? Skidim?

 

Thanks Guys!

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pull the fuel pump relay out then jumper pink (a 20a fused 12v power) to grey (provides power to the fuel pump).

the jumper should spin the pump regardless of what the ecm is doing IF you have power to the pink (healthy fuel fuse).

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martinarcher

The fact that you started it and killed it immediately makes me wonder if your plugs got coated with carbon.  That is more common with carbureted engines but can happen with EFI as well.  When the engine starts, the mix is much richer at first than after the engine runs for a few seconds and can coat the plugs in carbon if it is immediately shut down.  I had that happen with a truck I had when I was growing up.  Hopped in it and fired it up, rolled it forward 10 feet and killed it (moving it out from under the basketball hoop).  It wouldn't start after that.  After changing ignition components, I ended up pulling all 8 plugs and noticing they were black.  Cleaned them all up and reinstalled them and never had trouble again.

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56 minutes ago, tvano said:

pull the fuel pump relay out then jumper pink (a 20a fused 12v power) to grey (provides power to the fuel pump).

the jumper should spin the pump regardless of what the ecm is doing IF you have power to the pink (healthy fuel fuse).

Thanks Tvano! I'll try that either Sunday night or Monday night depending. Luckily for me I have a friend who has a '12 247 that we are using this weekend!

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11 minutes ago, martinarcher said:

The fact that you started it and killed it immediately makes me wonder if your plugs got coated with carbon.  That is more common with carbureted engines but can happen with EFI as well.  When the engine starts, the mix is much richer at first than after the engine runs for a few seconds and can coat the plugs in carbon if it is immediately shut down.  I had that happen with a truck I had when I was growing up.  Hopped in it and fired it up, rolled it forward 10 feet and killed it (moving it out from under the basketball hoop).  It wouldn't start after that.  After changing ignition components, I ended up pulling all 8 plugs and noticing they were black.  Cleaned them all up and reinstalled them and never had trouble again.

Thanks Martin, I actually figured this was a good moment to start really replacing parts on this boat. I got it 6 years ago and haven't replaced much (besides impeller, oil, trans fluid, vdrive fluid). I ordered new cap/rotor, plugs and plug wires just for some peace of mind. When we talk about high hour boats mine's the epitome of that. I bought it with 850 hours on it and have put about that many on (my hour gauge is not correct so I can only guestimate).

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Just to keep everyone updated. I plan to water test the boat this evening but wanted to tell all what I've found so far.

 

I got a pressure reading from my fuel pump once, then had to return the pressure gauge (oreilly's only has a 2 day rental), I then got my parts from bakes (plugs, plug wires, cap/rotor) and installed those. I then rented another pressure gauge (autozone with a 90 day rental) and keyed up and got zero pressure. I then did what tvano said and jumped the relay and suddenly on key up I hear the fuel pump continuously spinning like I'd expect and pressure shoots right to 40 psi. I then reinstall the relay, relieve the pressure in the gauge, and key up and I hear the pump spool up for the 2 seconds (expected) and pressure goes straight to 40 psi. I then start the boat real quick (again no water) and it fires no problem and I quickly shut it back off. I'm kind of stumped because besides replace some parts that I don't believe necessarily were the root of the problem I feel like I might be in the green.

 

I'll test it tonight and report back.

 

Oh side note don't leave your tools in your boat in outdoor storage...the one night I was too lazy to clean them up and throw them in my truck was the one day they decided to walk on off. Only probably 100 dollars in tools but more the idea of someone in my boat.

 

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18 hours ago, saskicker32 said:

Just to keep everyone updated. I plan to water test the boat this evening but wanted to tell all what I've found so far.

I'm kind of stumped because besides replace some parts that I don't believe necessarily were the root of the problem I feel like I might be in the green.

I'll test it tonight and report back.

 

bring magnifying glass and take a close look at the contacts in the relay socket.

i had one damaged contact that had backed out less than 1/16" and made it intermittent.

drove me crazy for 3 weeks of random no starts.  a close look at the fuel fuse (looking for iffy connections) may be worthwhile, too.

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  • 2 weeks later...

And the saga continues.

 

I took it out last tuesday and everything ran fine from the very beginning. I towed my roommate real quick, then drove to dinner on the river and everything was running A-ok.

 

Come thursday afternoon, I get to Shasta for my labor day houseboat. Drop in and am speeding around all afternoon scouting for our houseboat parking location. Once again, ran fine all afternoon.

 

Friday morning I wake up to take some people to the S.S. Relief (so we don't overdo the houseboats restroom). Starts right up, and about a minute later I start to throttle up and it immediately dies. I try to restart and nothing, wait a few minutes and it restarts fine. I then keep it under 2k rpms because right at that point it would shudder and almost die but if you go back to neutral it'd stay alive. We get back to the houseboat, we wait a few hours and try the boat again. Starts right up, I give it 30ish seconds and then throttle up, and no issue whatsoever. I end up towing ~12 people wakeboarding and never once had a problem.

 

Saturday...literallyy exact same scenarios as Friday. Tough running in the morning. Runs great in afternoon/evening

Sunday...Exact same

Monday...Exact Same

 

I feel like this is opposite for most people. I was up at Shasta and it was very warm ~110F outside in the afternoons this weekend. My boat ran great in the warm weather when the engine was also already warm. But would struggle when it was cool (~70F outside, and engine still cool).

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40 psi seems like pretty low fuel pressure. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be upwards of 60psi for a GM EFI engine.

Buy the darn gauge (it's like $40), that way you can hook it up immediately when you notice a problem.

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  • 3 weeks later...

An update to this. I took a few weeks off to allow my frustration to diminish. I checked on the boat yesterday, I turned the key on with a volt meter attached to the fuel pump and a fuel pressure gauge. I got nothing. I then proceeded to install my new fuel sender unit and had my ignition on for about 5-10 minutes and all of a sudden I hear my fuel pump prime for two seconds. Check the fuel pressure and it's sitting at 38psi. 

 

I then turn on the key, release pressure in the fuel gauge, key back to on, see 12 volts on my volt meter, hear the fuel pump prime and pressure go to 39 psi. I did this 3-4 more times. Started the engine real quick, checked voltage and it hovered at 12-13 volts. I then released pressure in the fuel gauge, and watched it climb back to 40psi.

 

First question, how quick should that gauge climb back to 40? It didn't shoot up but rather took 1-2 seconds before it got back to 40.

 

I am then obviously thinking it's electrical because that first time it didn't get the 12 volts to the fuel pump.

 

Second, I called my local malibu dealership they said either electrical or ecm.....I'm really hoping not ecm. But i'm also thinking it wouldn't be the ecm, if it was then it would never send  the signal to the fuel pump right? Not intermittent. That's why i'm leaning towards a loose wire. Maybe I'm wrong?

 

When the fuel pump didn't prime the first time, I tried to jump the relay (as mentioned above, and done before) and it didn't help anything.

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6 hours ago, saskicker32 said:

I checked on the boat yesterday, I turned the key on with a volt meter attached to the fuel pump and a fuel pressure gauge. I got nothing.

So the boat had been sitting for awhile and you had the meter hooked up before the first turn of the key for this round of testing?  This first turn on of the key resulted in no voltage to fuel pump?  If so, an electrical problem is occurring somewhere as it should of primed the pump on 'key on'.

Quote

I am then obviously thinking it's electrical because that first time it didn't get the 12 volts to the fuel pump.

When the fuel pump didn't prime the first time, I tried to jump the relay (as mentioned above, and done before) and it didn't help anything.

Maybe you have two issues really confusing things...one being electrical and one being with the pump.  At some point you hooked 12V straight to the pump(jumping the relay) and the pump didn't come on, correct?  If so, the pump has to be part of your problem as well.  Any time the fuel pump has 12V it should be running.  If it didn't run with 12V hooked to it, the pump is not functioning properly....end of story on that part of the problem.

For the potential electrical problem, all I know to do if it is intermittent and you don't want to chase the problem changing parts, is hook up some test leads that allow the volt meter to be near you while you are driving or at least so an observer can watch it.  If you see the voltage drop, you got an electrical problem of some sort that you will have to trace down probably by probing around in different spots to see where the drop does/doesn't happen.  You could hook to the wire coming out of the ECM wiring harness for the fuel pump relay and see if it is doing what it should be.

Not sure about the exact timing of these ECMs, but it is fairly straight forward.  Key on should at least cause a prime cycle, 12V+ out of the ECM on the fuel pump relay wire.   Once running, this fuel pump relay wire out of ECM should stay at 12V until engine is shut off.  Only thing I see doing is monitoring that voltage at the ECM(before or at where the wire goes into pump relay).  If that voltage is rock solid and functions like you would think even though the pump shuts off/doesn't run, its not the ECM.  Work your way back to the pump until you find where the 12V goes bad.

You could get into trying to control the relay with a 12V switched wire for testing, but I would try testing with the volt meter first to determine if the correct signal is coming out of the ECM.

Edited by D_Turner
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/24/2017 at 6:41 PM, D_Turner said:

So the boat had been sitting for awhile and you had the meter hooked up before the first turn of the key for this round of testing?  This first turn on of the key resulted in no voltage to fuel pump?  If so, an electrical problem is occurring somewhere as it should of primed the pump on 'key on'.

Maybe you have two issues really confusing things...one being electrical and one being with the pump.  At some point you hooked 12V straight to the pump(jumping the relay) and the pump didn't come on, correct?  If so, the pump has to be part of your problem as well.  Any time the fuel pump has 12V it should be running.  If it didn't run with 12V hooked to it, the pump is not functioning properly....end of story on that part of the problem.

For the potential electrical problem, all I know to do if it is intermittent and you don't want to chase the problem changing parts, is hook up some test leads that allow the volt meter to be near you while you are driving or at least so an observer can watch it.  If you see the voltage drop, you got an electrical problem of some sort that you will have to trace down probably by probing around in different spots to see where the drop does/doesn't happen.  You could hook to the wire coming out of the ECM wiring harness for the fuel pump relay and see if it is doing what it should be.

Not sure about the exact timing of these ECMs, but it is fairly straight forward.  Key on should at least cause a prime cycle, 12V+ out of the ECM on the fuel pump relay wire.   Once running, this fuel pump relay wire out of ECM should stay at 12V until engine is shut off.  Only thing I see doing is monitoring that voltage at the ECM(before or at where the wire goes into pump relay).  If that voltage is rock solid and functions like you would think even though the pump shuts off/doesn't run, its not the ECM.  Work your way back to the pump until you find where the 12V goes bad.

You could get into trying to control the relay with a 12V switched wire for testing, but I would try testing with the volt meter first to determine if the correct signal is coming out of the ECM.

Correct about the no voltage to pump. Which would lead me to electrical. Second jumping the relay, I still think could just be electrical not even getting to the relay, because the one time I pulled the pump completely I put it to a 12V jumper box and it spun up no problem.

 

In either case, I used the LED trick to the ECM to read codes, I got codes 42 and 81. I then figured for the hell of it, I'll clear the codes and then run it and see what codes re-appear (I have never checked the codes so figured I have no idea how long those codes have been there). 

 

I then took the boat out this Sunday, fired right up, got it to temperature, ran it close to WOT for almost an hour (with intermittent 5mph areas) but we took the boat to brunch 30 miles away. Thing ran like a top both to and from the location. I'll now recheck the codes and see what's up.

 

I did change props from the 537 to the 1215 and man I'm burning through an crazy amount of gas in my opinion. I understand WOT is like pouring gas in but 2 hours I was completely out of gas, probably 37ish gallons.

 

Just want to keep everyone updated!

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