My ballast epiphany

[wdr]

Got to admit up front, I was kind of a fan boy for big weight = legit wave and to that point the extra weight does make it a lot more fun for my long board (6'2" Brewer). I am running full MLS, 1100 surf side and 750 bow with the suck gate and a 1235 with full fuel. Anyway the wife is beating me up for a new board and I figure why not try the new board with a new wave w/o the extra ballast. We fill full MLS, wedge up 3 clicks (63% on the preset) and the suck gate and so far my wife is having a blast riding her H/L Shim, the old Land Lock and LF board we have. Great wave for my P5 Trident Carbon Pro also. I lost a bit of height about a foot and a half I would estimate and most of the curl, but it seems to have retained the push and surprisingly the length as well and we also seem to be able to recover as far back as we used to. I do think the suck gate is helping more than it used to be able to because it is more in the sweet spot than when it was being listed slightly up. The wave is a little cleaner farther back as well, no surprise there because I am not digging in as much. Next weekend I am going to use half as much weight in the bags in the locker and in the bow to see what I can get. I knocked off about 250 rpm also another bonus!

[boardjnky4]

While I'm sure that there is a point of diminishing returns, I think the above wake looks weak.

[05hammerhead]

So whats the recipe for a killer wave on a '14 VLX?  I ride in a buddys a little bit and he doesnt have a clue and I dont really want to guess and check stuff on his boat.

[UWSkier]

On 7/9/2017 at 9:32 PM, shawndoggy said:

btw this was filmed with a faux pro akaso 4k $88 camera from amazon.  I'm pretty happy with it after killing several $200+ gopros over the years.

Damn you...  4K action cam, waterproof, with remote and wifi for $75.  Just take my money Bezos...

Edited July 11, 2017 by UWSkier

[isellacuras]

11 hours ago, 05hammerhead said:

So whats the recipe for a killer wave on a '14 VLX?  I ride in a buddys a little bit and he doesnt have a clue and I dont really want to guess and check stuff on his boat.

Rumor has it, the mackinest wave is achieved with ninja weight. Pretty much any gated wave improves with a bias toward the surf side.  Sounds like these newer boats, that's not the case. 

[mikeo]

Ugh, now after blaspheming my "not a 350*" Monsoon 350 engine and testing the OJ 948 @Fman has posted for sale but still not getting any more headroom in the throttle I need to break out my digital flow meter and measure how much ballast I'm putting on board for the "ultimate" surf wake. Once I scientifically measure exactly how much is in my WM "max fill" rear locker setup I'll dump ballast until the wake/surf experience changes; I know that my Fly High "1000 lbs" bow triangle holds 100 gal., so it's 830 lbs. when filled. I also need to try manually driving at surf speed to see if the computer is taking throttle away from me when speed control is turned on. It looks like I've got another weekend of "wakeology" ahead of me.

* My Indmar Monsoon 350, listed in the Malibu 2015 brochure (page #21 here http://www.themalibucrew.com/_files/malibu/malibu_2015_brochure.pdf) is "MONSOON 350: 5.7L CAT – 350HP – 1.5:1 Gear Ratio" yet the label on the front of the engine says "5.7L 230KW" which converts to 308.44HP. I'm hoping my schedule allows for a phone call with Malibu tomorrow, and I'm really interested to find a 2015 Monsoon 409 to see what's on that engine's label.

[05hammerhead]

9 hours ago, isellacuras said:

Rumor has it, the mackinest wave is achieved with ninja weight. Pretty much any gated wave improves with a bias toward the surf side.  Sounds like these newer boats, that's not the case. 

Hes already having trouble getting it much over 10mph.  Do I need to suggest new prop?  Will dumping weight on one side help getting it up to speed?

[Fman]

8 hours ago, mikeo said:

Ugh, now after blaspheming my "not a 350*" Monsoon 350 engine and testing the OJ 948 @Fman has posted for sale but still not getting any more headroom in the throttle I need to break out my digital flow meter and measure how much ballast I'm putting on board for the "ultimate" surf wake. Once I scientifically measure exactly how much is in my WM "max fill" rear locker setup I'll dump ballast until the wake/surf experience changes; I know that my Fly High "1000 lbs" bow triangle holds 100 gal., so it's 830 lbs. when filled. I also need to try manually driving at surf speed to see if the computer is taking throttle away from me when speed control is turned on. It looks like I've got another weekend of "wakeology" ahead of me.

* My Indmar Monsoon 350, listed in the Malibu 2015 brochure (page #21 here http://www.themalibucrew.com/_files/malibu/malibu_2015_brochure.pdf) is "MONSOON 350: 5.7L CAT – 350HP – 1.5:1 Gear Ratio" yet the label on the front of the engine says "5.7L 230KW" which converts to 308.44HP. I'm hoping my schedule allows for a phone call with Malibu tomorrow, and I'm really interested to find a 2015 Monsoon 409 to see what's on that engine's label.

I was thinking about our conversation yesterday and reverting back to my 2013vlx with surfgate and 350.  At Bullards I could run all my hard tanks, rear 600 sumo bags and wedge 1-2 clicks, 11 mph with acme 2315.  I'm wondering why your lsv won't handle this?  Or are you trying to get to 12 mph?  I thought you mentioned you tried the 2315?

[shawndoggy]

8 hours ago, mikeo said:

* My Indmar Monsoon 350, listed in the Malibu 2015 brochure (page #21 here http://www.themalibucrew.com/_files/malibu/malibu_2015_brochure.pdf) is "MONSOON 350: 5.7L CAT – 350HP – 1.5:1 Gear Ratio" yet the label on the front of the engine says "5.7L 230KW" which converts to 308.44HP. I'm hoping my schedule allows for a phone call with Malibu tomorrow, and I'm really interested to find a 2015 Monsoon 409 to see what's on that engine's label.

230KW is undoubtedly the CARB rating.

https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/cert/eo/2015/sime/u-w-011-0069.pdf

[Fman]

I have found surfers who are beginner to intermediate really don't benefit from a massive wave.  I've had a lot of newbies on my boat this season who are going ropeless and easily staying in the wave doing basic carving with the lighter weight setups.

We also surfed two of us at one time ropeless the other day on the lighter weight setup and had two successful 360's pulled off as well. (we have video)

It's not for everyone but worth a shot experimenting with less weight and finding that happy medium for what is acceptable for your riding style.  Definitely much easier on the boat and fuel consumption with a lighter ballast setup.

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Fman

[mikeo]

Just now, Fman said:

I was thinking about our conversation yesterday and reverting back to my 2013vlx with surfgate and 350.  At Bullards I could run all my hard tanks, rear 600 sumo bags and wedge 1-2 clicks, 11 mph with acme 2315.  I'm wondering why your lsv won't handle this?  Or are you trying to get to 12 mph?  I thought you mentioned you tried the 2315?

I *think* that's about the same amount of ballast I'm running, but then the boat is 800 lbs heavier and has more surface area for drag in the water. I'm running at 10.6 MPH right now, and it's a crazy huge wave; I have dumped some ballast from the rear to get the wave longer without losing much height. So far everything has been done by trial and error following recommendations of others, now I need to dial-it-in for my specific use case.

I've got a 2315 that I put on the boat as soon as I got it; it came with a 1235 from the factory. I have a 2949 that was built from a 2315 as well. I've tried a 15d x 11p, 12p, and 14p with no significant difference in performance (400 RPM less with the 14p vs. 11p at 10.6MPH & identical ballast). I realized as I was driving home from the lake that I've let the auto-speed control (GPS) take over and never manually driven for a surf set, so I need to try manually driving to see if the speed control is doing something similar to "dock mode" where the throttle is restricted.

[pauley71]

9 minutes ago, Fman said:

I have found surfers who are beginner to intermediate really don't benefit from a massive wave.  I've had a lot of newbies on my boat this season who are going ropeless and easily staying in the wave doing basic carving with the lighter weight setups.

We also surfed two of us at one time ropeless the other day on the lighter weight setup and had two successful 360's pulled off as well. (we have video)

It's not for everyone but worth a shot experimenting with less weight and finding that happy medium for what is acceptable for your riding style.  Definitely much easier on the boat and fuel consumption with a lighter ballast setup.

 

My 9 yr old hates the big wave b/c it has so much push and feels it involuntarily moves him forward.  I, on the other hand, am 260lbs and 'believe' that I need the wave more than others.  So some of this might be rider size/weight and board size and style (skim vs. surf).  I find skim has more speed w/ less effort but much less recovery.  

So many variables (boat, weight, rider, board, speed, style, crew size, ...wind? haha)  .. nearly impossible to use a single formula.

Heck, I always say I want a G23 next so that I don't have to deal with all the tweaking and extra bags but not sure that's true, I'm probably just not reading the right forum

 

[mikeo]

23 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

230KW is undoubtedly the CARB rating.

https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/cert/eo/2015/sime/u-w-011-0069.pdf

Yup, that it's. The sticker on the engine has "FINDM05.7HCA" on it. Now to figure out why (from Malibu) the "350HP" is 308HP when there was/is a 270kW/362HP that seems to fall more in line with the advertising. For those following, here's the full list of Indmar engines certified by CARB in '15: https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/cert/cert_results.php?order=0

[shawndoggy]

Just now, mikeo said:

Yup, that it's. The sticker on the engine has "FINDM05.7HCA" on it. Now to figure out why (from Malibu) the "350HP" is 308HP when there was/is a 270kW/362HP that seems to fall more in line with the advertising. For those following, here's the full list of Indmar engines certified by CARB in '15: https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/cert/cert_results.php?order=0

If you search the archives, there's a quote somewhere from Larry at Indmar (Engine Nut) that specifies that Indmar doesn't rate horsepower.  If memory serves it was in the context of the LCR motor jumping from 320 horsepower to 330, with no actual modification to the engine itself between model years.  Basically, HP is made up by the Malibu marketing dept.

[shawndoggy]

Those CARB ratings have long been mastercraft/ilmor fodder.  

The PCM "450" in my '16 T22 is rated at 279KW, or 374HP, which is interestingly the exact same output as the Indmar/Ford base model Raptor 410, and more alarmingly only 8kw (10hp) more than the "base" 410/6.0 motor.  

I went in with my eyes open knowing this when I ordered, and I paid for the 450 anyway, because in '16 that was the only way to get the 6.0 with the 1.72 tranny.

 

[mikeo]

I'd really like to find a '15 23 LSV with a 409 or 450 running similar ballast so I can do a comparison; I may have found one, but I need to verify. I think I've hijacked this ballast thread to talk about engines enough; I'll have to start/add to an engine HP thread with the CARB link @shawndoggy shared.

[UWSkier]

This guy hasn't had his epiphany yet... @UpperleftWake

[shawndoggy]

how do you possibly come off plane on that boat?  Holy smokes!

[Raimie]

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 8:36 AM, ahopkinsTXi said:

OK, so yesterday we ran my friends T22 with 150lbs of lead in the bow, bow center and rear full with maybe 50-60% PNP, wedge, and it was still a great wave. Did have 5 adults in the boat between 150 and 220. Normally we run this same setup with full PNP and a 400lb filled in the walkway. RPMs were about 3400 at 10.8-11mph. I guess you are probably right  

On  my T22, I typically have all hard ballast full with 750's in the rear and the front triangle pushing the seat up. Plus, 540lbs under the observers side and 350 in the walkway. Plus about 100lbs of lead in the front. Wedge down, 11 mph. If I have a more substantial crew than a couple people/kids, I don't fill the 540 bag but have everyone sit on that side. (Regular surfer, but I do work on the heelside as well when driving back down river)

The last few weeks I have been the only one surfing. To save time, I have forgone the walkway bag and I haven't missed it much at all. I also used to always top off the fuel tank and I have been letting that slide lately. A week ago I forgot my kids wakeboard was in the rear locker and filled up to surf. Didn't realize it until I was done and it kept the bag at about 75% (however, surf side was full). Bottom line is... I am going to start playing with less. I think as our skills have improved, you can recover from further back without relying on 4k of ballast.

I try some tricks and baby airs (just breaking the fins out) occasionally, but I don't need what I have. I am liking the idea of running less and saving some gas money. Especially when my friends are out trying it because they are just learning and cruising. If anything, I will start dumping ballast for them since I rarely get gas money 

[Simo]

On 7/11/2017 at 3:07 AM, mikeo said:

Ugh, now after blaspheming my "not a 350*" Monsoon 350 engine and testing the OJ 948 @Fman has posted for sale but still not getting any more headroom in the throttle I need to break out my digital flow meter and measure how much ballast I'm putting on board for the "ultimate" surf wake. Once I scientifically measure exactly how much is in my WM "max fill" rear locker setup I'll dump ballast until the wake/surf experience changes; I know that my Fly High "1000 lbs" bow triangle holds 100 gal., so it's 830 lbs. when filled. I also need to try manually driving at surf speed to see if the computer is taking throttle away from me when speed control is turned on. It looks like I've got another weekend of "wakeology" ahead of me.

* My Indmar Monsoon 350, listed in the Malibu 2015 brochure (page #21 here http://www.themalibucrew.com/_files/malibu/malibu_2015_brochure.pdf) is "MONSOON 350: 5.7L CAT – 350HP – 1.5:1 Gear Ratio" yet the label on the front of the engine says "5.7L 230KW" which converts to 308.44HP. I'm hoping my schedule allows for a phone call with Malibu tomorrow, and I'm really interested to find a 2015 Monsoon 409 to see what's on that engine's label.

I stopped by a local dealer that sells Supra / Moomba. Part of their promo is to point out the difference in advertised vs actual HP in the  Malibu / Axis line.

[shawndoggy]

So I wouldn't believe it if it weren't true, but my boat had zero problem on Saturday pushing an acme 2279 (the .105 cup version of the more popular 2277 (.150 cup) 15x15.75 prop).

Cruising RPMs were significantly lower too, which is just what I was looking for.  

And then we saw a pretty sweet visqueen slide too.

 

[Fman]

@shawndoggyWhat kind of fuel consumption are you seeing with your Axis and the 450?

[shawndoggy]

23 minutes ago, Fman said:

@shawndoggyWhat kind of fuel consumption are you seeing with your Axis and the 450?

I've been pretty bad at tracking exactly... haha I wear contacts on the boat and I can't see the tiny font hours readout for chit!  With the 2249 I've been at approximately 6-7 gph.  Our usual lake has some very long cruises (30 minutes each way) to get to good water.  Think of running all the way to the end of the river arm at Bullards.  I'm hoping that the slightly taller prop really helps out with fuel consumption on that front.  I was at about 3500 @ 24mph on Saturday.  Haven't refilled the tank yet to see where we're at tho.

[Fman]

I'm at 7-7.5 gph with the 2277 with surf and wakeboarding.  I was running around 3500 RPMs surfing.

Last week at Bullards I damaged a prop there up in the North arm.  Be careful there were debris fields littered throughout the arm.  Main lake was better and that stretch where we were in Stephens boat seemed to also be clear.  Just keep an eye out....

[DarkSide]

We were having a similar conversation while out this morning.   The person i was talking to works at Nautique dealer and rides for Soulcraft.

Certain board's are designed for bigger waves and don't perform as well on smaller waves.  Same thing boards that are designed for smaller waves tend to be too fast on larger waves with tons of push. 

I can ride smaller waves, but it is much more work.    Because i am larger, i need more push than a 135 pound pro rider.  

I thought this was an interesting blog post from BoardCo

 

http://www.mmwatersports.com/uncategorized/do-i-need-a-pro-level-wakesurf-wave/