SnubNose

Pulled Trigger on Wetsounds, Need AMP advice

33 posts in this topic

Like the title says i pulled the trigger on 1 pair of wetsounds rev 10 with dual mount for my 2012 mxz g3 tower. I also grabbed a Wetsounds REVO 12 HPSW subwoofer, with a custom ported box being built. I also got the Wetsounds 420 BT eq. The guy is charging me about $700 to install and build box. He said we should try out my stock amps, since my boat came with 3 rockford fosgate amps. a 6 channel, 4 channel, and sub amp. My question is do you guys think the wetsounds will sound like dog s*** with the rockford fosgate or should i try them? What do you think of the Wetsounds HTX 1 for my sub and the HTX 2 for the rev 10s? Anything else I should know prior to install?

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7 hours ago, SnubNose said:

my boat came with 3 rockford fosgate amps. a 6 channel, 4 channel, and sub amp.

Not from the factory I do not think. IIRC, it would have been a 4 chnl for the in-boats, a 2 chnl bridged to the 4 ohm woofer and 2 chnl for the tower speakers. So, no way answer your question without knowing the exact amp models. 

 

My next question, who did you purchase the gear from? This is a rhetorical question, as im not actually looking for the response. What is their suggestion?  

 

Since the Revo-12HP is a single 4 ohm woofer, the HTX-1 is out, as 330W is not nearly enough to get a return on your woofer investment. I would suggest the Syn-DX2 or similar in power, even a shade more. 

 

HTX-2 is only going to deliver 150W rms to each rev-10. I would suggest the Syn-DX4 for a single pair.  

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30 minutes ago, MLA said:

Not from the factory I do not think. IIRC, it would have been a 4 chnl for the in-boats, a 2 chnl bridged to the 4 ohm woofer and 2 chnl for the tower speakers. So, no way answer your question without knowing the exact amp models. 

 

My next question, who did you purchase the gear from? This is a rhetorical question, as im not actually looking for the response. What is their suggestion?  

 

Since the Revo-12HP is a single 4 ohm woofer, the HTX-1 is out, as 330W is not nearly enough to get a return on your woofer investment. I would suggest the Syn-DX2 or similar in power, even a shade more. 

 

HTX-2 is only going to deliver 150W rms to each rev-10. I would suggest the Syn-DX4 for a single pair.  

The guy I purchased from suggested trying my stock amps firsts. He thinks I'll be satisfied with that. I asked him if my 12 inch RF sub would work in a better ported box. He said it wouldn't be much of an upgrade but the Wetsounds 12 would be even with stock amp 

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Stereo systems are just about always a work in progress.  It costs you nothing to run with the stock amps for a while so you can judge for yourself.  Well, I suppose it costs you the fee for the tech to do any tuning.  

I'm of the school that I want a lot more amp than the speaker needs.  Yes it sounds a little bit better, but it's in the splitting hairs category for a boat running 4000rpm down the lake with your hair in the wind.  So I vote that you save your money for gas for a summer and do the amp upgrades if you decide to in the off-season.

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10 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

Stereo systems are just about always a work in progress.  It costs you nothing to run with the stock amps for a while so you can judge for yourself.  Well, I suppose it costs you the fee for the tech to do any tuning.  

I'm of the school that I want a lot more amp than the speaker needs.  Yes it sounds a little bit better, but it's in the splitting hairs category for a boat running 4000rpm down the lake with your hair in the wind.  So I vote that you save your money for gas for a summer and do the amp upgrades if you decide to in the off-season.

That's a good plan. 

Do you agree with the techs statement that the 12 RF will not be enough to pair with the rev 10s? 

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18 minutes ago, SnubNose said:

I asked him if my 12 inch RF sub would work in a better ported box. He said it wouldn't be much of an upgrade but the Wetsounds 12 would be even with stock amp 

This is interesting here. If you retained the stock amp/wattage and stock 12" woofer, and moved from a sealed (or no box which might be the case with an MXZ) to a ported enclosure, there will absolutely be an increase in output! Comparing one 12" woofer in a parted enclosure to another 12" woofer in a ported enclosure both driven with the same wattage, both are going to have about the same perceived output. This is because they are both the same size and both gain the benefits of the ported enclosure. The only thing left to set them apart output wise, is excursion. Now, will the two difference woofers sound different? For sure they will. Will brand-A in a new ported enclosure, be an upgrade compared to brand-B thats in a poorly built enclosure or no enclosure at all? Dang skippy it will be. But not because of the name, but rather due to the proper execution.  

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So would the built box work for both subs ? If that is the case would it be smart to at least try the fosgate sub first then if it's not enough switch to Wetsounds or add Amps 

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I'm following this.... really want to know if building a box is in my future.  

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4 hours ago, SnubNose said:

That's a good plan. 

Do you agree with the techs statement that the 12 RF will not be enough to pair with the rev 10s? 

Honestly I'm not much of a tower speaker fan so I don't pay as much attention to those systems that focus on them.  I'll give you my opinion though.  REV10s are tower speakers pointing behind the boat.  You're not going to hear that sub at the end of a wakeboard line.  You might hear it surfing.  You'll of course hear it in the cabin.  Properly powered in a good enclosure it'll sound fine in the cabin.  If you are going for so much sub that you WILL hear it significant distances from the boat, then I feel sorry for the people *in* the boat at the time. That's just me though.  The Rev10s are so awesome because they put out so much low end sound removing the need for a crazy subwoofer letting you design a better balanced system.  End of the opinion is that you really shouldn't be focusing so much on matching your sub to your tower speakers as your sub to your cabin speakers (and/or the Rev10s turned down to levels that 'fill' the cabin comfortably).

I have zero feedback for party cove music projection.  It's not common where I live so I've never been in that environment.

It's a work in progress as I said.  Do just some changes at a time and really get a good experience with every change before making the next one.  Otherwise all of us here will just spend your money for you!! :)

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MLA knows his stuff.  

The SYN DX4 and a pair of rev 10's work great together.  If you post your exact amp models we can help you with the specs.  

As for the subs, I typically use my tower speakers OR my cabin speakers and sub.  I never try and turn the sub all the way up so my rider can feel the base.  A pair of Rev 10s blasting above the drivers head is enough.  I couldn't imagine wanting more, it may be uncomfortable for the passengers.  My bimini under the speakers also helps to quiet the music in the boat way more than I expected.  (This is a good thing)

Here's what I do.  

Wakeboarding: Tower 100% Sub 0% Cabin 0%

Cruising: Cabin 40% Sub 40% Tower 0-20% (depends on crowd and speed)

Swimming: Tower 20% Sub 0% Cabin 0%

The WS 420 is awesome, you'll love it. 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, SnubNose said:

So would the built box work for both subs ? If that is the case would it be smart to at least try the fosgate sub first then if it's not enough switch to Wetsounds or add Amps 

Good question, to which I do not know the answer without digging deeper into the rockford woofer. What I do know, based on the T/S parameters of the rockford, its more ideal running in a small sealed. This does not mean that you cannot put the rockford in a ported enclosure, it just means it will perform best in a small sealed. Unless both woofers require a nearly identical ported enclosure, then this experiment would likely result in poor woofer performance, as a result of one of them being in a less than ideal enclosure. 

The rockford woofer is a decent woofer, but does not have the power handling, therefore output potential, of the Wet Sounds XS or Revo series 12" woofers. They are not really in the same class, beyond being the same size. This is why I suggest the amp with ample wattage, which I dont recall the stock one being enough to push the Wet Sounds to its potential. With eithe rof these wet sounds 12' woofer, in a ported enclosure and solid amp wattage, you wont be going back into any part of your system to make additional upgrades.   

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Thank you guys. I am going to post up the exact specs of my current stock system later today so we can get this dialed! 

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Amp 1 

P400-2

Amp 2

P500-2

Amp 3

P400-4

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I talked to another marine audio installer and he actually recommended replacing my fosgate black box and faceplate with a JL Receiver. He said this device would work the same as the wetsounds 420 BT and provide a better interface. Its only $100 more than the wetsound eq so it seems like a good idea. Link below:

http://www.jlaudio.com/mediamaster-mm100s-be-marine-audio-source-units-99920

 

This new installer said that my rockford fosgate sub would be good with a new box, but I told him that in the past I have smelt a burning smell which was most likely coming from the sub, but my 2 of my tower speakers are blown out as well so it could have been those. So he recommends just upgrading to the wetsounds sub since its only a couple extra hundred.  

Do you guys think 1 pair of rev 10's is going to be sufficient, this new marine installer can get me the rev 10 for $850 a pair, brand new full warranty. Seems like an awesome deal so I was wondering if I should take advantage and grab 2 pair. 

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9 hours ago, MLA said:

Good question, to which I do not know the answer without digging deeper into the rockford woofer. What I do know, based on the T/S parameters of the rockford, its more ideal running in a small sealed. This does not mean that you cannot put the rockford in a ported enclosure, it just means it will perform best in a small sealed. Unless both woofers require a nearly identical ported enclosure, then this experiment would likely result in poor woofer performance, as a result of one of them being in a less than ideal enclosure. 

The rockford woofer is a decent woofer, but does not have the power handling, therefore output potential, of the Wet Sounds XS or Revo series 12" woofers. They are not really in the same class, beyond being the same size. This is why I suggest the amp with ample wattage, which I dont recall the stock one being enough to push the Wet Sounds to its potential. With eithe rof these wet sounds 12' woofer, in a ported enclosure and solid amp wattage, you wont be going back into any part of your system to make additional upgrades.   

I posted the amp specs. Are they enough wattage for rev 10 and sub ? 

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Any amp is enough to drive any speaker. The question is, is it enough wattage to drive that speaker to its potential. The ultimate goal is, to get the desired performance from a speaker without having to drive the volume dial to max all the time. 

The 500x2 is going to be a decent match power wise, for the xs-12 or revo-12hp, especially when loaded in a ported enclosure. However, this 2 chnl stereo amp is not the most ideal tuning wise, for a woofer in a ported enclosure. Your enclosure builder/installer should be able to handle this. 

The 400x2 would also work, just a 100W rms less. In reality, this would likely not result in an audible difference from the woofer. 

The 400/4 is being used for the in-boats, so its off the table right now.

As to the 400x2 or 500x2 for use with the tower speakers. To a single pair of 4 ohm speakers, its a difference of 50W rms to each speakers. Again, not likely to result in an audible difference in this case and neither comes close to driving the speaker to its potential. 

So, if I was going to reuse the existing amps; I would use the 500x2 for the towers and use the 400x2 for the woofer. 

If my budget allowed me to spend some money, but may not go full out this time, I would retain the 500x2 for the woofer and get a Syn-DX4 for the tower speakers. 

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What fuse would you put on a SYN-DX4?  I just realized I fused mine too low and would likely blow it as soon as I cranked the tower speakers.  (Unfortunately I haven't had the chance yet)

800 watts at 12 volts is 66.6 amps

I frequently run my tower speakers at 100%

70 amp fuse or 80? 

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53 minutes ago, Gavin17 said:

800 watts at 12 volts is 66.6 amps

The 800W is in AC and the 12V is in DC, so not a direct equation to amps DC. 2nd, it does not take into account amp efficiency. Rule of thumb, dont exceed the capacity of the amp cables, while having enough capacity to carry the expected load. 

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Posted (edited)

So according to google the maximum fuse size for a 4 awg wire is 125 amps and a class D amp is about 75% efficient.  

I never knew that amps had output rated in AC.  

A SYN-DX4 comes with 2 30amp fuses from the factory.  Should I install a 60 amp on the power wire or round up?

Edit: Crutchfield says to just match the amp so that would be 60 for me. 

Edited by Gavin17

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I've found that internal amplifier fusing has nothing much to do with the actual usage draw and more to do with an extreme, whether that is a catastrophic failure or serious abuse.

Sine waves used in RMS wattage testing are AC. Music is AC and music waveforms have very little in common with sine waves. Just the supply is DC.

Wire capacity is a factor of both current and distance. While your wire gauge at this distance can safely handle more current than the amplifier fusing, there would be no reason to exceed the amplifier fusing.

Redundantly fusing the cable is for the benefit of the boat, not the audio equipment, and thus is a good idea. But it is recommended that the cable fusing is done closest to the power source or it serves little purpose.

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Both google and crutchfield can easily lead you down the wrong path with those rec's. Dangerous path? not likely, just a recommendation based on incomplete info. Google does not take the length of the cable into account and crutchfield takes neither the cable gauge or length into the account. 

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1 hour ago, MLA said:

Both google and crutchfield can easily lead you down the wrong path with those rec's. Dangerous path? not likely, just a recommendation based on incomplete info. Google does not take the length of the cable into account and crutchfield takes neither the cable gauge or length into the account. 

Why do you say that we are not nearly reaching the speaker/woofer potential if we are actually close to the RMS in terms of watts ? 

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Posted (edited)

39 minutes ago, SnubNose said:

Why do you say that we are not nearly reaching the speaker/woofer potential if we are actually close to the RMS in terms of watts ? 

Because he, MLA, has a great deal of first hand listening experience with these and similar products. Those that have installed and tuned dozens to perhaps hundreds of systems tend to be on the same page when it comes to power assessments.

Speakers/woofers are generally rated in a safe RMS wattage according to their thermal capacity. It's an important rating but not the entire story. Similar to the difference between horsepower and torque.

Edited by David

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5 hours ago, SnubNose said:

Why do you say that we are not nearly reaching the speaker/woofer potential if we are actually close to the RMS in terms of watts ? 

In the case of the 500x2 or even the 400x2 to the wet sound 12". Yes, the woofer has an RMS of 500W and the amp is rated at 500W x 1 or 400x1. The trick is, in order to get that 500W or 400W from these 2 chnl amps, we are bridging both chnls down to their minimum safe load, when we bridge a 4 ohm woofer across both chnls. We are milking the amp for all she has and just meeting the woofer's RMS. Going with an amp that delivers a potential that exceeds the driver's rated RMS, we get the desired performance at a lower volume dial setting and also at a lower amp gain dial setting. These are both pluses in a perfect world.  

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Consider a JL 750/1 for the Revs.  Having owned most everything mentioned here... and paid for it all.... the JL outperforms them all.  

 

Its not till till you get into a quality 500-700w that the regular Amps compete equally in SQ and balance IMO across all applications, including engine off floating.

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