hethj7

2018 F-150 Diesel

114 posts in this topic

I figured the forum's alter ego being an F-150 site would enjoy this news.  

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2018-ford-f-150-revealed-with-diesel-power-news

 

The biggest news in F-150 land for 2018 is the arrival of a diesel engine. After years of rumors and speculation—and the success of the Ram 1500 EcoDiesel—Ford finally is joining the ranks of the half-ton diesels. Again, Ford is light on specifics, although the company does claim that the engine was “designed, engineered, and tested in-house.” (We previously had speculated that Ford might opt for a version of the 3.0-liter Lion turbo-diesel V-6 it jointly developed with PSA Peugeot Citroën years ago, which is currently used in some Range Rovers.) We do know that Ford’s new turbocharged 3.0-liter Power Stroke diesel V-6 also will be mated to the 10-speed automatic transmission. The diesel won’t be available at launch but will appear shortly after the 2018 model goes on sale in the fall. In addition to the diesel, Ford recently announced plans for an F-150 hybrid, set to hit the market in 2020.

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It is going to be hard to get people in the F150 market to pass on the Ecoboost and buy a "small" diesel engine in the same truck. I can't see many people rushing to sell their high powered gas 1/2 tons to buy a moderate powered diesel truck for anything that is going to pull a load. A coworker traded his 3/4 ton Cummins for a Ecodiesel, he said if he still had his boat to pull he would probably have traded again for something with more power.

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Ford's history with diesels over the last decade+ has been pretty poor compared to GM and Dodge/RAM.  I could see folks being hesitant going that route.

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I too don't see the appeal of a diesel that size versus the EcoBoost.  Doubt the mileage gain will be enough to offset the higher price of diesel, plus the availability of diesel is more limited.  I imagine the diesel is probably even more expensive than the Eco.  I'll be in the market for a new truck this year and it'll either be an EcoBoost or if a "real" diesel, a Cummins powered Ram.

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16 minutes ago, MLBurns said:

It is going to be hard to get people in the F150 market to pass on the Ecoboost and buy a "small" diesel engine in the same truck. 

How is this any different than the ram offering? The ecodiesel makes similar power to the 5.7...

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I was scratching my head a little when I saw this a few months ago also. 

I don't see the benefits. The newer diesels with their complex fuel and emission systems are quite costly to repair.... and with diesel fuel quality issues we see commonly, I don't really see any "savings" with this setup in a half ton truck. 

Full size transit is a good example. They offer those with the 3.5 eco, and a 5 cyl. In-line Powerstroke . The initial purchase price is less on the eco, fuel mileage is only slightly better on the PS, and the eco out performs the diesel.  IF you have any fuel system concerns... it's a HUGE repair bill and quite a bit of downtime to get it straightened out. Fuel system contamination IS IN NO WAY a warrantable repair. So 99.9% of the time you are PAYING for the repairs regardless of age of the vehicle or mileage .... unless your insurance or the fueling station will step up. 

Let me say we see two of three complete fuel system repairs per month on average. These are easily 8-10k repair bills . 

The thing I would note is this... the 6.7l diesel is pushing close to 1000 ft. Lbs and. 440 hp.  The ecoboost is already close to half of that .  I would expect a 3.0l diesel to push MAYBE 250 hp and 400 ft lbs. I feel like it fall in between the current 2.7 and 3.5.... but I also foresee a bit more power out of the 3.5 in the next few years with the globalization of this engine and its redesign. I think it will still be the BIG BLOCK option in the future.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with everything above.  I would say the difference from Ram is the Ecoboost makes so much torque down low, it reminds me already of a small diesel.  Diesel vs traditional V8 offering compared to  EB vs diesel seems like two different scenarios.  

Edited by hethj7

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The ram 1500 ecodiesel getting close to 30mpg seems like a pretty great thing.  Till you consider the upfront cost and added costs of maintenance (including DEF).  Then the breakeven is pretty far out there.  Still, a full size truck that will do better than 25mpg on the highway intrigues me tho I have to say.  

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6 hours ago, Bawshogg said:

I was scratching my head a little when I saw this a few months ago also. 

I don't see the benefits. The newer diesels with their complex fuel and emission systems are quite costly to repair.... and with diesel fuel quality issues we see commonly, I don't really see any "savings" with this setup in a half ton truck. 

Full size transit is a good example. They offer those with the 3.5 eco, and a 5 cyl. In-line Powerstroke . The initial purchase price is less on the eco, fuel mileage is only slightly better on the PS, and the eco out performs the diesel.  IF you have any fuel system concerns... it's a HUGE repair bill and quite a bit of downtime to get it straightened out. Fuel system contamination IS IN NO WAY a warrantable repair. So 99.9% of the time you are PAYING for the repairs regardless of age of the vehicle or mileage .... unless your insurance or the fueling station will step up. 

Let me say we see two of three complete fuel system repairs per month on average. These are easily 8-10k repair bills . 

The thing I would note is this... the 6.7l diesel is pushing close to 1000 ft. Lbs and. 440 hp.  The ecoboost is already close to half of that .  I would expect a 3.0l diesel to push MAYBE 250 hp and 400 ft lbs. I feel like it fall in between the current 2.7 and 3.5.... but I also foresee a bit more power out of the 3.5 in the next few years with the globalization of this engine and its redesign. I think it will still be the BIG BLOCK option in the future.

Totally agree. The light duty diesel has lost all it's advantages, especially the longevity and dependability aspect when you consider the complexity of the emission system and all the heat that these engines have to contend with. 

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Nitrousbird said:

Ford's history with diesels over the last decade+ has been pretty poor compared to GM and Dodge/RAM.  I could see folks being hesitant going that route.

 

Actually the last 6 years have been pretty good with the in-house designed Powerstroke. I think you need to recheck your math. 

 

And don't forget that GM was responsible for killing the diesel in North America with their Olds diesel offering in the 1980's. 

 

 

Edited by Tims
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Posted (edited)

Anybody who has driven the Ram ecodiesel would agree, this is very exciting news.  People regularly report averaging more than 30 mpgs in the ecodiesel.  No one gets the sales hyped ecoboost mileage numbers, do they?  Ecodiesel power comes on very smooth and is really only about 3k price difference with HEMI.  I bought a HEMI because most days I only drive 4 stops less than a mile and didn't figure that was best done with a diesel, otherwise, I'd have one.  Very capable little engine.  And its a 10 year old design previously only sold in Europe.  Same 3.0 displacement from Ford I can see #s like 250 and 450, and with a 10 speed, wow, might get 26/33.  

Edited by 85 Barefoot
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http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/ecodiesel/

375hp  / 470 tq  for 3.5 ecoboost  vs 240 hp /420 for ecodiesel is a huge difference when towing close to max capacity especially on hills. You would have to run a small displacement diesel at high exhaust/turbo temps to make these numbers, the old saying "there's no replacement for displacement" can really be true for diesel engines. Diesel makes a specific amount of energy, doing it with half the cubic inches requires the engine to run that much harder (shorter engine life). The 6.7 cummins only makes 385 hp / 900 tq at more than twice the size.

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The diesel option is all about CAFE.  The manufactures MUST get their fuel economy numbers up, and while the EcoBoost has proven itself as a very good tow motor, it really has proven no advantage over a comparable powered V8 engine.

And while towing is at least somewhat of a priority for most people on this site, it is not for the vast majority of the buying public.

I think this is great news.  And I would be shocked it if was not a strong seller.

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^ Yes and it will keep the F series on top. Many people have left other brands; Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Nissan, etc. to buy an Ecodiesel. They will no longer leave Ford and Ford will capture some Ecodiesel buyers..

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9 hours ago, Tims said:

Actually the last 6 years have been pretty good with the in-house designed Powerstroke. I think you need to recheck your math. 

 

And don't forget that GM was responsible for killing the diesel in North America with their Olds diesel offering in the 1980's.

My math is just fine.  The 6.7L is known for eating turbo's, along with a few other issues.  Better than the 6.4 and easily better than the 6.0L. 

Not sure how some diesel from 30+ years ago has any relevance to the subject.

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9 hours ago, MLBurns said:

http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/ecodiesel/

375hp  / 470 tq  for 3.5 ecoboost  vs 240 hp /420 for ecodiesel is a huge difference when towing close to max capacity especially on hills. You would have to run a small displacement diesel at high exhaust/turbo temps to make these numbers, the old saying "there's no replacement for displacement" can really be true for diesel engines. Diesel makes a specific amount of energy, doing it with half the cubic inches requires the engine to run that much harder (shorter engine life). The 6.7 cummins only makes 385 hp / 900 tq at more than twice the size.

15 years ago it took big time displacement to produce the power of the ecodiesel.  Technology has advanced a ton.  The ecodiesel itself is almost an ancient design.  If Ford is designing a new engine in house from the ground up, it will continue to make significant advances.  Yeah, it might have to work hard on hills, but I'd still take a diesel working hard over a gas for longevity purposes.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Nitrousbird said:

My math is just fine.  The 6.7L is known for eating turbo's, along with a few other issues.  Better than the 6.4 and easily better than the 6.0L. 

Not sure how some diesel from 30+ years ago has any relevance to the subject.

My 2011 F250 has been flawless. My third F250 and is my favorite so far. My 04 had is fair share of problems but would still pull a house down and I would of driven it coast to coast when I traded. 

Im sure we could find many stories of a few duramax's and Cummin's with some problems as well, hell I have 2 buddies that have had bad turbos and radiators in the dodge and gmc, does that make them bad trucks then too? Most of the turbo eating problems in the F series I have heard about have been in the 450's on up under heavy service. 

Edited by ndahlberg12
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Just now, ndahlberg12 said:

My 2011 F250 has been flawless. My third F250 and is my favorite so far. My 04 had is fair share of problems but would still pull a house down and I would of driven it coast to coast when I traded. 

Im sure we could find many stories of a few duramax's and Cummin's with some problems as well, hell I have 2 buddies that have had bad turbos and radiators in the dodge and gmc, does that make them bad trucks then too? Most of the turbo eating problems in the F series I have heard about have been in the 450's on up under heavy service. 

Not to mention that many of the issues you hear about in modern diesels are caused by people installing tuners and operating the engines outside of the factory spec.

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I have never driven an ecoboost i'll admit, but what is the advantage to it over a traditional v8? it sure isn't mpg. With the ecodiesel knocking on the door of 30 mpg unloaded. i would like to see more companies try to out a smaller diesel in 1500s with maybe a touch more power. Also maybe a small v8 with a turbo, instead of a v6. 

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Just now, 1HELLUVALIFE said:

I have never driven an ecoboost i'll admit, but what is the advantage to it over a traditional v8? it sure isn't mpg. With the ecodiesel knocking on the door of 30 mpg unloaded. i would like to see more companies try to out a smaller diesel in 1500s with maybe a touch more power. Also maybe a small v8 with a turbo, instead of a v6. 

The advantage of an EcoBoost (or EcoDiesel for that matter) is forced induction.  Instead of running 4000 + RPMs up hills, power comes on at a low RPM.  Many people are afraid to let an engine run high RPMs.  I will say running a lower RPM is a more relaxing towing experience.

You are unlikely to see a V8 turbo because of fuel economy.  A 5.0 "EcoBoost" would have great power, but would likely get even worse fuel economy than the old Ford V10, or the GM 8.1.

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4 minutes ago, 1HELLUVALIFE said:

I have never driven an ecoboost i'll admit, but what is the advantage to it over a traditional v8? it sure isn't mpg. With the ecodiesel knocking on the door of 30 mpg unloaded. i would like to see more companies try to out a smaller diesel in 1500s with maybe a touch more power. Also maybe a small v8 with a turbo, instead of a v6. 

Like Ryan stated, more power down low. Ecoboost torque peaks at around 1800 RPM while a traditional V8 torque peaks at 6000 RPM. I didn't take time to get exact torque vs RPM specs, but you get the idea. 

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Posted (edited)

I would  assume towing up hills the ecoboost would have to downshift to 3000+ rpms just like a v8 to build enough power. I guess the mpg is the big thing for me, i would have expected mid 20's highway. I can get 20 ish highway with a 3/4ton diesel.   

Edited by 1HELLUVALIFE

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No matter the motor it's still a 1/2 ton. You can't pull or haul anymore with a 1/2 ton diesel than you can with a gas. 

Dodge 1500 Eco Diesel max towing is 9830 payload is 1450. This is for a Quad Cab Big Horn with a 6.4 long bed. 

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Posted (edited)

On 1/9/2017 at 6:08 AM, Nitrousbird said:

My math is just fine.  The 6.7L is known for eating turbo's, along with a few other issues.  Better than the 6.4 and easily better than the 6.0L. 

Not sure how some diesel from 30+ years ago has any relevance to the subject.

Do you have any data to support that besides what you read on a forum? Or have you ever owned any of the big three diesels? The 6.4 was a way bigger disaster than the 6.0 and actually the last few years of the 6.0, Ford and Navistar had worked out most of the bugs where it actually had fewer warranty issues than the outgoing 7.4 which has cult like following for durability. 6.7 has a good reputation and all modern diesels have lots of stress put on the turbos to manage regeneration of DPF.

At one point Ford was selling more light duty diesels than Dodge and GM combined, so no not sure how your original comment is relevant. 

My point was that Ford's overall standing in the truck market will most likely give this model a heads up, even though personally I would never opt for the diesel option.  

 

Edited by Tims
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