Ballast Upgrade Dual Fill & Drain Pump on Rear PNP

[The Hulk]

U have about 1200 lbs bags on each side? Nice!

Edited October 20, 2016 by The Hulk

[The Hulk]

1 hour ago, The Hulk said:

@DarkSide 

Still wondering what hardware u used? Through hull to 1" valve to nipple to a union? Then another nipple to pump? I didn't think u could rotate pumps in there to thread onto valves with a nipple only ? Union?

 

[DarkSide]

@The Hulk

1" through hull -> pump (no shut off, I know bad idea)-> 1 1/8 line to bag

Edited October 20, 2016 by DarkSide

[The Hulk]

I received one of the 1" 12v DC ball valves.. little disappointed because the thread is 1" but the ball valve opening is it 3/4' which is odd.. must be a China thing.. perhaps the 1-1/4" valves would be 1" opening... But then more expensive and more to convert them back down to 1"

I did learn though that there is a self closing model which would be much easier for wiring purposes.. only opens with voltage applied.. then auto closes without voltage...

Also learned ones with black tops/box have plastic gears ones with gray top have metal gears.. so I'd prefer Metal.. but with smaller than norm opening this may thurn out to be too much hassle and money for what its worth.. 

May need to pop into the factory next month and see if they have something else..and ask why the opening is smaller.. 

https://goo.gl/photos/RwJEj3i4hNemujZq9

Edited October 30, 2016 by The Hulk

[malibuskier2003]

@The Hulk Any updates?  I'm curious as to how things are working out for you on this.

Dave

 

[NHolladay]

On 10/3/2016 at 4:18 PM, kerpluxal said:

wiring can handle it.... the fuse might be your problem but is a easy fix. Mine had a 5 amp fuse for the pumps.. I added the additional pump and wired it to the already pump so that it work with existing switch... I replaced the 5 amp fuse with a 10 amp.. have not had an issues with a ~1year of usage

I think of you match the fuse to the load you are fine.  Really just a safety precaution.  You could put a 30 but if all the pumps output do not exceed that at breaking point. Then the fuse is useless.  I think he did it right here.

[The Hulk]

4 hours ago, malibuskier2003 said:

@The Hulk Any updates?  I'm curious as to how things are working out for you on this.

Dave

 

Boats been at dealer for few months scratches being fixed from when I purchased... shower install.. dual heaters.. seadeck top non slip..table....hope to get it back.. next week.. 

So I was looking at the 2000gph pumps as shown on here but I don't think there is room with a shut off valve.. so now I'm looking at the highest reversablea but they would require DC relays sine I think the biggest one pulls 20A . It would save some holes.. gotta do something but haven't decided.. hoped to of had this done already but haven't had the boat to sit down and look through it.. 

[malibuskier2003]

16 hours ago, The Hulk said:

Boats been at dealer for few months scratches being fixed from when I purchased... shower install.. dual heaters.. seadeck top non slip..table....hope to get it back.. next week.. 

So I was looking at the 2000gph pumps as shown on here but I don't think there is room with a shut off valve.. so now I'm looking at the highest reversablea but they would require DC relays sine I think the biggest one pulls 20A . It would save some holes.. gotta do something but haven't decided.. hoped to of had this done already but haven't had the boat to sit down and look through it.. 

Cool.  I'm watching this thread because I'm in almost the same position.  I don't like waiting to fill the bags and I'm tired of burping the bags.  My specific situation is that I fill and drain my bags/ballast multiple times a day.  Cutting my fill time in half is appealing but may not be financially palatable.  I'm sure there's a better way to skin this cat but I'm not sure how just yet.

Dave

[kerpluxal]

31 minutes ago, malibuskier2003 said:

Cool.  I'm watching this thread because I'm in almost the same position.  I don't like waiting to fill the bags and I'm tired of burping the bags.  My specific situation is that I fill and drain my bags/ballast multiple times a day.  Cutting my fill time in half is appealing but may not be financially palatable.  I'm sure there's a better way to skin this cat but I'm not sure how just yet.

Dave

If you are looking to cut time, then plumb your bags separate from the tanks (removing the piggyback)... This is what most will recommend... but will require you to add a new intake, drain, and switch for each bag... there are several post on here for a how to... if you review the whole thread, this is what @MJR63 and @minnmarker are saying... Financially this would be cheaper also than running electronic ball valves along with the extra pumps... The piggyback is nice if you just want to keep on the same switch and pump but is longer to fill and drain.. if you are looking for speed over convenience of simply adding a bag, then you need to isolate the additional bag to its own fill/drain system. 

[The Hulk]

8 hours ago, kerpluxal said:

If you are looking to cut time, then plumb your bags separate from the tanks (removing the piggyback)... This is what most will recommend... but will require you to add a new intake, drain, and switch for each bag... there are several post on here for a how to... if you review the whole thread, this is what @MJR63 and @minnmarker are saying... Financially this would be cheaper also than running electronic ball valves along with the extra pumps... The piggyback is nice if you just want to keep on the same switch and pump but is longer to fill and drain.. if you are looking for speed over convenience of simply adding a bag, then you need to isolate the additional bag to its own fill/drain system. 

while i understand this would be faster than factory it seems it would be slower than having both pumps going into the bag/tank/piggyback?

hard tank is a lot smaller compared to the avg bag most are using so if they are each on their own fill / drain pumps then the hard tank fill up quicker than the bag and your slowest drain/fill is then the bag... so the hard tank pump is not working anymore... wouldnt it be faster having both pumps "pump" until both are full? and same with draining? 

regardless making the system faster requires a new intake and drain hole as mentioned: just seems to make sense it would be faster if both pumps are working all the way until finished filling the total system (tank + bag) ..

where im at is here

option 1: just add another 1200gph intake for each side going into the bag either at top or near top (custom bag), and add a 1200gph on the back of the sac (custom sac with a second port for the new drain) while still allowing it to also drain into hard tank. this system should be ok to just wire the pumps in parallel with current ones maybe upgrade the 5a fuse to a 10a if necessary. 

Option 2: use the highest capacity reversable: adding an intake (but dont need the drain holes) becasue i can spit it back out the intake hole... issue here is it would probably have to be connected to the hard tank drain port. then again the "custom bag" i could take the 1200gph pump and put it on the back of the bag for draining since that one can run dry and the reversable would be at lowest spot and run till empty then shut everything off.. but again this would require some relays... 

Edited January 25, 2017 by The Hulk

[NWBU]

37 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

Option 2: use the highest capacity reversable: adding an intake (but dont need the drain holes) becasue i can spit it back out the intake hole... issue here is it would probably have to be connected to the hard tank drain port. then again the "custom bag" i could take the 1200gph pump and put it on the back of the bag for draining since that one can run dry and the reversable would be at lowest spot and run till empty then shut everything off.. but again this would require some relays... 

I like option 2, and the semi-custom LBS bags I have from Wakemakers already have multiple drain holes in them. I think mine were $200ish/bag, so those won't break the bank.

It's around $800 per reversible installed at my dealer, which includes dedicated intake thru-hull, wiring and switch at the dash.

[The Hulk]

@NWBU i just thought of a problem with the reversible pump is that there is no way to know when the tank is empty since if connected to the bottom of the Hard tank and spitting out through an intake under the water you wont hear when it runs out, leading to the very easy and probable situation of running them dry and easily forgetting them. 

if you tie them in via relays to the maliview then perhaps it will shut off when empty but seems those gauges are not alwasy correct and dont alwasy shut off or require turning back on again to empty the last bit out and then it stays on etc.. 

thats probably why many here connect reversibles up to separate switch. i have no idea how long those things can run dry... and i'll be the first to mention i sometimes forget about my pumps until i hear them an say whooops.. 

another option would be going with standard 1200s and do a "tripple" 1200gph fill with the smaller pumps then on the back of the bag squeeze in the 2000gph sureflow so that would get me 3600gph fill and 3200 drain... although thats 4 more intake holes and 2-drain holes... getting holly! 

[vanamp]

I have stayed away from reversible pumps because I always seem to forget to turn my pumps off.  I did see that wakemakers has an adjustable  timer module that you can connect to them that will turn them off for you after a series time.  If I did not already have my parts purchased I might reconsider my design. 

 

https://www.wakemakers.com/wakemakers-ballast-system-timer.html

[NWBU]

There's usually kids in the boat so I've forgotten mine a few times too. It looks like their reversible now has a run-dry shut off feature too but mine don't have this so can't tell you how effective it is.

https://www.wakemakers.com/premium-reversible-ballast-pump.html

[hunter77ah]

51 minutes ago, NWBU said:

There's usually kids in the boat so I've forgotten mine a few times too. It looks like their reversible now has a run-dry shut off feature too but mine don't have this so can't tell you how effective it is.

https://www.wakemakers.com/premium-reversible-ballast-pump.html

Anyone use the wakemakers pump? How does it compare to the Johnson (Ultra, ballast puppy, or King)?

[05hammerhead]

28 minutes ago, hunter77ah said:

Anyone use the wakemakers pump? How does it compare to the Johnson (Ultra, ballast puppy, or King)?

From what Ive head it is a rebranded johnson.

[MLA]

Yes, its the Johnson ultra ballast but with connector. Comparison to the King is easy. Its a bigger, faster ballast puppy that also draws more current. The other two are as close as can be. Slight difference in their advertised flow rate, but in a real world ballast system, its a mater of seconds, not minutes. Both brands run the orange impellers and have run-dry protection. 

[The Hulk]

ballast king is 960gph and pretty expensive: roughly 19-20A

just seems another 1200gph standard might be the best way to start. should cut me down by 1/2.

the 2000gph ones will be extremely tight: if the hole is off by 1/8" inch it may not work. the problem after measuring is the hull is "V" shaped and the pumps will be coming up angling towards one another. adding them on top of a valve and then having to add a "union" to join the pump to vale puts them even higher. In fact i think it would only work if one pump is 2" higher than the other being offset. The shut-off valve becomes near pointless as it would pretty much be impossible to shut off by hand. the pump would more than likely have to be taken out in order to access the drain/large bolt on trans. going to see about this again but its looking to more hassle than what its worth with having to add relays just like whats needed with ballast king etc. 

errrr decisions...decisions... 

Question: adding the second pump: is it best to have it fill and go into the top of the ballast bags or is it ok to go into the bottom front: may slow it down a tad i would imagine, but just wondering if the hose going in on top gets in the way when they are drained for storage, then the burp/vent hose could possibly be smaller and more flexible so its not all on top and in the way or is this not suggested? 

[MLA]

3 hours ago, The Hulk said:

 

ballast king is 960gph and pretty expensive: roughly 19-20A

just seems another 1200gph standard might be the best way to start. should cut me down by 1/2.

 

The 960 gph of the impeller pump will still be about 960 gph at the sac. That 1200 aerator may lose up to 25% of its flow rate by time the water reaches the sac.

With an aerator, you need to dump into the top of the sac for filling and draw from the bottom with your drain pump. 

[05hammerhead]

4 hours ago, The Hulk said:

ballast king is 960gph and pretty expensive: roughly 19-20A

just seems another 1200gph standard might be the best way to start. should cut me down by 1/2.

the 2000gph ones will be extremely tight: if the hole is off by 1/8" inch it may not work. the problem after measuring is the hull is "V" shaped and the pumps will be coming up angling towards one another. adding them on top of a valve and then having to add a "union" to join the pump to vale puts them even higher. In fact i think it would only work if one pump is 2" higher than the other being offset. The shut-off valve becomes near pointless as it would pretty much be impossible to shut off by hand. the pump would more than likely have to be taken out in order to access the drain/large bolt on trans. going to see about this again but its looking to more hassle than what its worth with having to add relays just like whats needed with ballast king etc. 

errrr decisions...decisions... 

Question: adding the second pump: is it best to have it fill and go into the top of the ballast bags or is it ok to go into the bottom front: may slow it down a tad i would imagine, but just wondering if the hose going in on top gets in the way when they are drained for storage, then the burp/vent hose could possibly be smaller and more flexible so its not all on top and in the way or is this not suggested? 

Go with reversibles and pump to the bottom of the sac.  Same in and out.  Get a timer module if youre worried. If youre really worries about speed, get two reversibles for each side, still likely cheaper than aerators and still less holes to drill and in my opinion a much cleaner install.  Did I mention that reversibles have no problem sucking sacs flat.

[The Hulk]

12 hours ago, 05hammerhead said:

Go with reversibles and pump to the bottom of the sac.  Same in and out.  Get a timer module if youre worried. If youre really worries about speed, get two reversibles for each side, still likely cheaper than aerators and still less holes to drill and in my opinion a much cleaner install.  Did I mention that reversibles have no problem sucking sacs flat.

that was one of my issues that i was considering doing the elec ball valves to close the vent on the sac so the aerator will suck the sac flat, (two valves on the vent) one for hard tank to keep open but close the sac one when draining.. 

problem is i'm really bad with turning them off. the timer i just cant see working well personally...but i could be wrong... 

i like the idea of less holes, but dont understand how it would be cheaper i not more like 2X the price?

 

[MLA]

7 hours ago, The Hulk said:

that was one of my issues that i was considering doing the elec ball valves to close the vent on the sac so the aerator will suck the sac flat, (two valves on the vent) one for hard tank to keep open but close the sac one when draining.. 

problem is i'm really bad with turning them off. the timer i just cant see working well personally...but i could be wrong... 

i like the idea of less holes, but dont understand how it would be cheaper i not more like 2X the price?

 

No electric ball valve needed, a check valve works just fine. 

[05hammerhead]

10 hours ago, The Hulk said:

that was one of my issues that i was considering doing the elec ball valves to close the vent on the sac so the aerator will suck the sac flat, (two valves on the vent) one for hard tank to keep open but close the sac one when draining.. 

problem is i'm really bad with turning them off. the timer i just cant see working well personally...but i could be wrong... 

i like the idea of less holes, but dont understand how it would be cheaper i not more like 2X the price?

 

Let me get this straight, youre going to buy 4 aerator pumps and electric ball valves, etc and expect that to be less than reversibles?  Im betting you could do this with reversibles for under $1000 and for $2000 I bet you could fill those bags in 3 mins and flatten in the same.  

 

[The Hulk]

Problem is is knowing when the reversible pumps are empty

[NWBU]

Doesn't the run-dry feature shut off the reversible when the bag is empty now?