Ballast Upgrade Dual Fill & Drain Pump on Rear PNP

[nlouthan]

If there's no vent to the bag, I would think the bag should suck pretty flat as the tank empties, but as you said, the tank will need to be vented.  You'd need to open a vent to the tank right as the bag empties.  I'm not sure how to do that.

Won't the empty bag pretty much just collapse on itself once it's empty?

What valves are you going to use?

Edited October 13, 2016 by nlouthan

[The Hulk]

10 hours ago, vanamp said:

Do you even need to connect the hard tank to the vent line?  Won't it vent through the bag and fill the bag faster?

You will lose a little water out the tank drain pump because of thr added pressure but some will still make its way into bag. 

Hard tank currently has a vent and bag does not.. so I have to burp.. but on the other hand not having a vent in bag allows it to suck down flat which is nice. not sure if that would happen with a vent on bag any idea?

Thinking about what u said I think that I should add a valve between hard tank and bag vent.. basically shut off bag vent then it would suck down flat when draining? 

 

[minnmarker]

Agree, move the vent line from the hard tank to the bag. Put a one way flapper valve in the vent line and it'll self burp and suck down flat. Not sure if there might be an issue about collapsing the hard tank though?

[The Hulk]

The aireator pumps are not airproof so they also don't have a strong vacuum so there's no way they could actually collapse the hard tank physically however I don't know if not allowing any air inside will cause any problems for the hard tank draining I think the best idea is to keep the hard tank with a vent like now and shut off the bag vent because it's working correctly now as it is ...without a bag vent for draining.. so just adding a motorized ball valve on the back vent line to open up for filling will save me from opening the hatches and burping I'll make a new diagram to get your opinion

[The Hulk]

attached "ultimate" setup idea:

Question: everyone adds check-valves or Vented loops on the fill lines to prevent siphoning: But nobody worries about passive draining through the DRAIN lines correct? in other words i dont need ball valves there right?

Vents: i know people either A. have to get them higher than bags or put a shut off valve on the vent or Plug the hole to eliminate passive draining/siphoning. so by this way i can shut off the vent on BAG which "could" be possibly lower than the top of the bag: so once i see water squirting out the Vent i know i'm full : the ball valve closes off the bag vent: the problem i see here is that if the bag is higher than the vent the hard tank vent could still possibly allow passive draining right? if correct then i would need another ball-valve on the Hard Tank vent: in this case then when you fill both ball valves receive signal and open up. When you stop filling both close: Now when you Drain: the hard tank vent Opens up again but BAG vent stays closed; would that work? The BIG question is whether i need two ball valves on the vent or if just using ONE and "IF" no air is allowed into bag or hard tank during draining will it reduce drain times becasue we are creating somewhat of a vacuum...good for bag to be pulled flat but no idea on the hard tank and how it will affect draining? 

[vanamp]

Wont Not allowing air into the tank  suck water out of the bag into the tank and speed up draining? I think venting the tank will just slow both filling and draining. 

Passive draining can be a problem through the drains but it's not really passive siphon draining.  If you build up pressure in you tanks or bags water can get pushed through the drain pumps if it's the path of least resistance. It's a problem for me. 

Right now I have a single pump setup and it fills tank -> tank vents to bag to fill it -> bag vents out boat.   This created a lot of pressure in my tanks so I lose a lot of water through my drain.  I'm adding a second fill pump for the bag and leaving the venting the way it is.  The tank will still lose water out the drain but any that makes its way to the bag is just bonus. Also when I see water start to come out drain port it will be an indication that the tank is full if I'm ever curious.  

Ideally I'd have a ball valve wired parallel with fill pumps to close drains when they are on or other solutions is to route drain hoses to opposite sides of the boat to make that path a little more resistive. 

[teamerickson]

I selfishly want you to just put the big pumps in the hard tank locations, vent the bag, and see how that works. Can you do that for me?

[kerpluxal]

43 minutes ago, vanamp said:

Wont Not allowing air into the tank  suck water out of the bag into the tank and speed up draining? I think venting the tank will just slow both filling and draining. 

Passive draining can be a problem through the drains but it's not really passive siphon draining.  If you build up pressure in you tanks or bags water can get pushed through the drain pumps if it's the path of least resistance. It's a problem for me. 

Right now I have a single pump setup and it fills tank -> tank vents to bag to fill it -> bag vents out boat.   This created a lot of pressure in my tanks so I lose a lot of water through my drain.  I'm adding a second fill pump for the bag and leaving the venting the way it is.  The tank will still lose water out the drain but any that makes its way to the bag is just bonus. Also when I see water start to come out drain port it will be an indication that the tank is full if I'm ever curious.  

Ideally I'd have a ball valve wired parallel with fill pumps to close drains when they are on or other solutions is to route drain hoses to opposite sides of the boat to make that path a little more resistive. 

I was thinking the same... but could not put into words... thanks for speaking my mind

[nlouthan]

How much faster will the drain be with no tank vent?  I have no idea if it'd make a real difference or not.  Obviously, gravity will still be pushing water from the bag into the tank if the tank is vented.

What if you put another valve on the tank vent and have it close when the 2000 drain pump is running?  Then when the bag is empty, turn off the pump and the tank will now have a vent.

How big are your bags?

Edited October 13, 2016 by nlouthan

[The Hulk]

4 hours ago, teamerickson said:

I selfishly want you to just put the big pumps in the hard tank locations, vent the bag, and see how that works. Can you do that for me?

I don't think k it's that simple the new ones are 10A pumps need a 15A fuse. Not sure what the fuse is under the dash for ballast pumps currently? Wire looms a gauge smaller in current pump as well as well.. I'll be checking on room tomorrow..

[The Hulk]

4 hours ago, teamerickson said:

I selfishly want you to just put the big pumps in the hard tank locations, vent the bag, and see how that works. Can you do that for me?

I don't think k it's that simple the new ones are 10A pumps need a 15A fuse. Not sure what the fuse is under the dash for ballast pumps currently? Wire looks a gauge smaller in current pump as well as well.. I'll be checking on room tomorrow..

Edited October 13, 2016 by The Hulk

[The Hulk]

5 hours ago, vanamp said:

Wont Not allowing air into the tank  suck water out of the bag into the tank and speed up draining? I think venting the tank will just slow both filling and draining. 

Passive draining can be a problem through the drains but it's not really passive siphon draining.  If you build up pressure in you tanks or bags water can get pushed through the drain pumps if it's the path of least resistance. It's a problem for me. 

Right now I have a single pump setup and it fills tank -> tank vents to bag to fill it -> bag vents out boat.   This created a lot of pressure in my tanks so I lose a lot of water through my drain.  I'm adding a second fill pump for the bag and leaving the venting the way it is.  The tank will still lose water out the drain but any that makes its way to the bag is just bonus. Also when I see water start to come out drain port it will be an indication that the tank is full if I'm ever curious.  

Ideally I'd have a ball valve wired parallel with fill pumps to close drains when they are on or other solutions is to route drain hoses to opposite sides of the boat to make that path a little more resistive. 

I don't recall having any passive drain issues through the drains.. and my bags are plump and hard with no bag vent and only factory small hard tank vent. 

I can say that my bags get a ton of air while filling. So as water fills hard tanks air must be going out the hard tank vent as well pushing up through both front back hoses between tank and bag. Basically as water fills air is being pushed up. 

[minnmarker]

I say ditch the hard tanks and go with the dual or triple reversible pumps into multiple inlets into the biggest bags you can get!  Use relays for the electrics and normal 1" vent lines.  Simple and fast.  1800+ gal per hour fill and drain.

[The Hulk]

Just now, minnmarker said:

I say ditch the hard tanks and go with the dual or triple reversible pumps into multiple inlets into the biggest bags you can get!  Use relays for the electrics and normal 1" vent lines.  Simple and fast.  1800+ gal per hour fill and drain.

The issue is I'm at 1100 now and at a min need to get 2200. My current route should get me 3100 and if room to swap factory as well then I'll be 4000gph.. not sure about room till I get to lake tomorrow..

[minnmarker]

2 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

The issue is I'm at 1100 now and at a min need to get 2200. My current route should get me 3100 and if room to swap factory as well then I'll be 4000gph.. not sure about room till I get to lake tomorrow..

Well as teamerikson said, it'll be fun to watch!  Take lots of pictures but don't keep track of how much you spend

[vanamp]

I think you should ditch the electric ball valves.  The are only there to make you system more efficient.  Unless you are worried about your carbon footprint print they will only make your system slightly faster. 

For the cost of all the valves you could probably add more pumps and have a system that may not be as efficient but a lot faster. 

[The Hulk]

7 minutes ago, vanamp said:

I think you should ditch the electric ball valves.  The are only there to make you system more efficient.  Unless you are worried about your carbon footprint print they will only make your system slightly faster. 

For the cost of all the valves you could probably add more pumps and have a system that may not be as efficient but a lot faster. 

Agree but was worried about draining. I could probably switch to CVs on fill lines but keep them on the vents

[The Hulk]

Ordered a ball valve and relays to test them out and see how it will all work 

[teamerickson]

Sure would be a lot easier to swap out the stock pumps and see what it does.

[The Hulk]

11 minutes ago, teamerickson said:

Sure would be a lot easier to swap out the stock pumps and see what it does.

I hope they fit could be a quick start. Still need relays.p pulling boat and lift out next week so won't get to do any until after its out

.But I need a winter project as well so may have to just go all out.. downfall of being an inventor..always gotta improve something even though it's working..

Edited October 13, 2016 by The Hulk

[The Hulk]

Going to be real tight to fit two of these in there.. swapping rear pumps probably not enough room.. maybe but no way to turn the pumps to thread on.. same thing with where I want to out the new ones.. may be stuck with additional 1100s.. 

[The Hulk]

Might be able to use a union under pumps so don't have to twist pumps onto valves.. only chance..

[The Hulk]

OK now I'm confused. I have three pumps. In middle of boat? 5 through hull pumps in total? Aren't there only 4 hard tanks? Is there dual fill one one of them by chance? 

5 holes on side of boat by driver 3 on rear behind.  2 on other side rear.. 10-side holes in boat.. 

[The Hulk]

And what is that yellow thing on back of center hard tank.. there must be a tank with two pumps? Maybe center or bow?

[The Hulk]