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Ballast Upgrade Dual Fill & Drain Pump on Rear PNP


The Hulk

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Just now, MLA said:

Lets get the easy stuff out da way. Your Bu is build with 1.125" hose. 

When talking hose, you refer to it by its inner diameter. when talking about the hose fittings, you refer to the fittings OD. So in the case of the loop you are looking at, the 1" designation should indicate the barb's OD as it should fit 1" hose ID. 

With the right check valve, you will not notice a restriction. I ONLY use check valve and have never used a vented loop. 

Its OK to fit a 1" hose over a 1.125" fitting but it dont work the other way around. You will not have success crimping down 1.125" hose on a 1" fitting. 

Ok then this concludes my thinking on why there are GLOBS of silicone/glue around the 1100s barb connections and the vent loops: i though on my 2013 it was goofy and now i see it on my 2016. Bu is crimping the heck out of the 1.125" to make it FIT 1" pump barbs and also a 1" vent loop... doesnt this seem a bit goofy for plumbing? relying on globs of silicone to make a good seal vs an actual tight fit?

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Just now, The Hulk said:

someone once told me that water-flow is similar to electricity: so if thats the case perhaps it WOULD be better to have the larger 1-1/8" ID hose between pump and bag, even though pump output barb and bag inputs are probably around 15/16" each (less than 1") ?

for example the pump comes with 16awg but if wiring over x-distance you should increase to 14awg; but obviously you would cut the wire near the pump and it would be reduced back down to 16awg right at the pump but your not restricting the flow of current over the longer distance only at the last second , have no idea if this works same way with water-flow and pressure/

You are correct.

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@minnmarker so is malibu using an actual 1-1/8" vent loop in their boats or the 1" vent loops? not by my boat but last time i recall there was globs of glue around the hose and vent loops almost like the hose was too big...could be wrong but i know my 2013 it was surely Like this. just strange as i dont see anyone selling 1-1/8" vent loops and would thing that if all boats are plumbed with the 1.125 hose then they would have a vent loop for it...

the WM check valve you belive wont restrict my flow compared to a vent loop? what is the check valve advantage / dissadvantage from a vent loop?

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Just now, The Hulk said:

someone once told me that water-flow is similar to electricity: so if thats the case perhaps it WOULD be better to have the larger 1-1/8" ID hose between pump and bag, even though pump output barb and bag inputs are probably around 15/16" each (less than 1") ?

for example the pump comes with 16awg but if wiring over x-distance you should increase to 14awg; but obviously you would cut the wire near the pump and it would be reduced back down to 16awg right at the pump but your not restricting the flow of current over the longer distance only at the last second , have no idea if this works same way with water-flow and pressure/

I grounded my hose once and it didnt arc, but still hurt for a week.

Yes, larger ID hose like a larger gauge cable has less resistance. But, in a real world ballast system like we are talking, the difference between 1" and 1.125" is not worth the time to split hairs. If building a complete system from scratch, IMHO, 1.125" is not worth the $.50 p/ft difference over 1". Nothing wrong with using either so dont get too hung up on it. There are other areas of the ballast to put more thought into. 

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2 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

what is the check valve advantage / dissadvantage from a vent loop?

Using a VL seems like it requires much more hose length where as the plumbing with a check valve is way more direct. You have to find a spot thats higher than the filled sac to mount the loop. Hose to travel from the pump to the loop than on to the sac. 

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9 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

@minnmarker so is malibu using an actual 1-1/8" vent loop in their boats or the 1" vent loops? not by my boat but last time i recall there was globs of glue around the hose and vent loops almost like the hose was too big...could be wrong but i know my 2013 it was surely Like this. just strange as i dont see anyone selling 1-1/8" vent loops and would thing that if all boats are plumbed with the 1.125 hose then they would have a vent loop for it...

the WM check valve you belive wont restrict my flow compared to a vent loop? what is the check valve advantage / dissadvantage from a vent loop?

I don't know.  I think it was MLA that knew about what Malibu uses.  I do agree with him that the difference in flow resistance between 1 and 1-1/8 is inconsequential and to concentrate on other design elements and components.  If you go with check valves make sure you get data on pressure drop across them, not just opening pressure.  They do restrict flow.  As long as you're going "whole hog" I think I remember a post about a guy putting solenoid activated gate valves in the hoses and wiring them in parallel with the pumps.  That might be the best solution - just not the easiest or cheapest.

As for the silicone, it could be used as lubricant during manufacturing.  They probably do not want to be heating hoses to make every connection at the factory, which is time intensive.

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https://www.wakemakers.com/marine-check-valve.html

 

they say their check valves are custom and "less" restrictive .... they appear to be flapper type which is much less restrictive than the spring type which require a ton or pressure and should not be used obviously. 

i think the check valves would save me $150+ when considering i would need less hose than with the vented loops, also if i did get 1.125 vented loops they are $$$$$ and rare.... check valves would probably save space and not have to worry if i upgrade to larger sacs that come ALL the way up to the hatches (probably higher than the vent loops) currently not the case: although if i do, i'm guessing i would have to swap out my factory vent loops with check valves as well 

so my guess is the easiest thing is to just use the 1.125" hose with a 1.125" WakeMakers Check Valve and plumb it right into the bottom of the bags: i dont like the idea of plumbing into the top of the bags and having the hose in the way.. as shown in the pic below from WM. if get new bags i can add an additional fill port in bottom front and plumb the 1.125" hose so its mostly out of sight. might reduce flow a tad filling from bottom but probably not worth caring about the difference. 

Question: is it better to have the check valve on the way UP from the pump or on the way DOWN to the bag? or does it really even matter?

nrS279hNsSiYUbVfj5cgIhwOE6hYlU71-1.jpg

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30 minutes ago, MLA said:

Using a VL seems like it requires much more hose length where as the plumbing with a check valve is way more direct. You have to find a spot thats higher than the filled sac to mount the loop. Hose to travel from the pump to the loop than on to the sac. 

on another note isn't a VL similar to poking a hole in a straw? or is that only for sucking and not blowing? :lol:  haha ......if it is then i would think a soft-flap check valve and VL would be similar results? and if so why wouldnt malibu use the WM check valves instead of vented loops, they could save money on hose and the vented loop.. 

Edited by The Hulk
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That picture with the check valve shows the vent line - which has to go on the top of the bag.  Yes, putting check valves in is a lot easier than VLs and the flapper valves are less restrictive - but they are still restrictive, as are the extra tubing and bends required for a VL - if you're interested in maximum flow.

Again, using 1" hose will be cheaper and easier than 1-1/8 and it won't make much, if any, difference in flow.

Maybe you could post a diagram of the system you envision?  How are you going to drain?  Vent?

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6 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

That picture with the check valve shows the vent line - which has to go on the top of the bag.  Yes, putting check valves in is a lot easier than VLs and the flapper valves are less restrictive - but they are still restrictive, as are the extra tubing and bends required for a VL - if you're interested in maximum flow.

Again, using 1" hose will be cheaper and easier than 1-1/8 and it won't make much, if any, difference in flow.

Maybe you could post a diagram of the system you envision?  How are you going to drain?  Vent?

from what i can tell the PNP bags have two-connections to the hard tank one at front and one at back where they fill/drain into hard tanks correct? and the current pumps from factory just fill and drain from the hard tanks correct?

the current bags i have wont work: i'll need to add an additional port at front and back of the bag: where i will be pumping with a new pump into bottom of front of the bag, and drainign from the back of the bag. Technically i'll be putting water faster into the bag than the hard tank but since there are 2 connections (front/back) going to the hard tank the water will drain down there and fill up hard tank first anyhow. 

Draining: since the bags are so much bigger than the hard tanks the new drain pump will be draining the bag, once bag gets too low for the pump on the bag to work then the water left in the bag will continue down into the hard tank and drain through the normal hard tank drain: so yes the bag drain will be running dry for the duration that it takes the normal hard tank drain to drain the hard tank... but doesnt matter on this style pump.

the vent line: i was planning on just using some 3/4" flexible plastic hose similar to whats already on the hard tanks: i though i could just T those two vents together up as high as possible in the gunnel. (higher than highest part of bag) i figured using the 3/4" flexible plastic (non water hose) is easy and more flexible than using ballast hose for the vent.  Not sure if that makes sense can draw a diagram later if needed. 

basically long story short: PNP all remains same as it is now: just adding additional front/back fill/drain ports on the CUSTOM BAG bottoms: then on the top of bag vent connect it with a T to factory Vent eliminating need for additional vent hole. make sense? Both new DRAIN pumps on the bags would exit boat on left/passanger side rear locker area because that side has fewer holes already. The right side of the boat near rear has the holes for center tank as well...doing it this way will make equal holes on each side of the boat. 

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and if the 1100 to hard tank + 2000 to Bag still takes longer than the Front/Center ballast tanks on their factory 1100s  

then i would see if possible to swap out the current rear 1100s with these 2000s to try and achieve near 4000gph on rears. 

ideally i'd like to get down in the 5min range but 15-20min is currently HORRIBLE... 

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If you swap out the OEMs please post progress and pictures.

I still think you should add the vent line on the bag and see if that improves your fill times. :)

Edited by teamerickson
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32 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

Question: is it better to have the check valve on the way UP from the pump or on the way DOWN to the bag? or does it really even matter?

The Cv's sold by a particular ballast retailer, are hardly custom. They've been a staple in the marine world long before ballast and manufactured by a co called Bosworth. Yes, they are a flapper and yes, it matters where in the fill line they are places. If mounted vertical, you can have a case where remaining drain flow from the previous trip can sit on top of the flapper and hold it closed. This can prevent water from purging through the pump on the next launch. Trapped air would lead to a priming issue. other marine valve types do not suffer from this. 

I use CV's that have an ID thats no smaller than the pumps outlet and not as small as the fly high W743 1" sac fitting. So no added restriction at all. No open pressure required. 

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2 minutes ago, teamerickson said:

Wait? Where is the inlet on those pumps? Aren't those meant to be submerged in water? Bilge pumps?

They can be submerged, but they have a threaded inlet in the bottom. As long as the body of the pump is below the water line, they will work.  

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44 minutes ago, teamerickson said:

If you swap out the OEMs please post progress and pictures.

I still think you should add the vent line on the bag and see if that improves your fill times. :)

If only swapping factory it would have to be 2x as fast or more with this thing I would think .. will see if it can fit.. 

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55 minutes ago, MLA said:

The Cv's sold by a particular ballast retailer, are hardly custom. They've been a staple in the marine world long before ballast and manufactured by a co called Bosworth. Yes, they are a flapper and yes, it matters where in the fill line they are places. If mounted vertical, you can have a case where remaining drain flow from the previous trip can sit on top of the flapper and hold it closed. This can prevent water from purging through the pump on the next launch. Trapped air would lead to a priming issue. other marine valve types do not suffer from this. 

I use CV's that have an ID thats no smaller than the pumps outlet and not as small as the fly high W743 1" sac fitting. So no added restriction at all. No open pressure required. 

So mount them on the downside direction?

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12 minutes ago, MLA said:

If using a flapper style, you dont wan them vertical with inlet down and outlet up.  

Got it so put them in the downside of hose with inlet facing up to sky and outlet down 

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5 hours ago, The Hulk said:

@minnmarker so is malibu using an actual 1-1/8" vent loop in their boats or the 1" vent loops? not by my boat but last time i recall there was globs of glue around the hose and vent loops almost like the hose was too big...could be wrong but i know my 2013 it was surely Like this. just strange as i dont see anyone selling 1-1/8" vent loops and would thing that if all boats are plumbed with the 1.125 hose then they would have a vent loop for it...

the WM check valve you belive wont restrict my flow compared to a vent loop? what is the check valve advantage / dissadvantage from a vent loop?

WM confirmed this: malibu uses a 1" vet tube which fits 1" ID hose, however malibu is using globs of silicone around the VL barbs to make 1-1/8" hose fit them, along with clamping as hard as possible. this is bit lazy IMO and poor design and or lack of Quality care and will probably result in leaks at some point> but maybe i'm wrong and it just works.

on another note the 1" vent loop is the most restrictive place in the current factory setups since its probably only about 3/4" ID (although i have not measured) but if we consider the barb is about 1/8" thick all the way around were probably pretty close: given the fact that a barb for 1-1/8" hose has roughly 15/16" ID or a hair less. 

so the next question why waste the effort why not A: make your own 1-1/8" VL or B: buy bulk from suppliers that already make a 1-1/8" VL? why hassle with the issues of globes of glue etc.. The factory 1100s are fitted with a 1-1/8" barb so i get using the 1-1/8" hose but why slack and get lazy with a 1" VL?

almost want to replace them all with either 1-1/8" check valves or 1-1/8" VL's to see if i can get a bit faster fill times. seems crazy to bottle neck things up at the peak/VL area of all places..

maybe looking into it to much...just odd 

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On 10/11/2016 at 4:59 PM, minnmarker said:

.  As long as you're going "whole hog" I think I remember a post about a guy putting solenoid activated gate valves in the hoses and wiring them in parallel with the pumps.  That might be the best solution - just not the easiest or cheapest.

Looking into it but the solenoid valves look quite restrictive pumping straight into a wall then when open have to go up and around that wall . I would think fine for house plumbing PSI. But I think would slow down these pumps.. now electric ball valves on the other hand should be better.. the problem I'm seeing is that the stay open or closed. So if you wire them to the pump and you turn on the pumps they will open for example but you actually have to reverse the polarity to close them so how do you do that by turning off via screen automatically... unless you hook it to a 3  position rocker switch.. easy but requires extra switch other than touch screen to control DC electric ball valves each way.. 

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5 hours ago, The Hulk said:

my basic system idea: let me know thoughts. 

setup1.jpg

One thing I see is that the bag will be draining into the tank as the 1100 pump is pumping water out.  Depending on how fast the draining is, you might still have a full tank when the bag is empty.  The single vent line is going to have a lot of water going through it once the bag and tank are full and the pumps are running.  No idea if it'll be a problem, but something to keep an eye on.  

Here are some solenoid valves I found: http://www.electricsolenoidvalves.com/

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15 minutes ago, nlouthan said:

One thing I see is that the bag will be draining into the tank as the 1100 pump is pumping water out.  Depending on how fast the draining is, you might still have a full tank when the bag is empty.  The single vent line is going to have a lot of water going through it once the bag and tank are full and the pumps are running.  No idea if it'll be a problem, but something to keep an eye on.  

Here are some solenoid valves I found: http://www.electricsolenoidvalves.com/

its not to scale but obviously the bag is like 3X the capacity of the hard tanks. 

yes i realize that the bag will empty first and then i'll be left to empty hard tank with only the 1100s. but getting the BIG bags down as fast as possible is the goal. i'll check this weekend if there is room i may consider seeing if the 2000gph could also replace the stock 1100s but i just doubt there will be enough room for those but if i can why not!

since i have all winter on it i'm going to go the motorized ball valve method as well. Plan to wire the current pump wires as the "triggers" to relays: each relay will be attached to both fill pumps or drain pumps to handle the amps. Next the out of the relay for the pumps i'll join that as well to a DPDT Relay which will control the motorized 1" ball valves that i will put on both fill lines and the VENT lines so it will work as follows: turn on fill from touch screen: sends signal to relays to turn on fill pumps: that relay kicks on a DPDT relay to Open the FILL ball valves and the Vent Valve. When you hit off on the touch screen pumps turn off, and when there is NO power on the signal line (aka normal pump wire) then the DPDT relay will flip polarity back closing the fill line ball valves and the vent valve. now no water can escape my ballast system its locked and loaded! 

Now my main question if i do this for both fill and drain lines: aka when i go to drain both drain line valves open do i want to keep the vent line closed? ie no air can come in while draining? wouldnt this allow me to suck the bag down flat? but after the hard tank is empty obviously the pumps will have to allow air into the hard tank somehow as the pumps are not a vacuum pump and dont have the force to collapse down a hard tank... thoughts?

Edited by The Hulk
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Do you even need to connect the hard tank to the vent line?  Won't it vent through the bag and fill the bag faster?

You will lose a little water out the tank drain pump because of thr added pressure but some will still make its way into bag. 

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