Ballast Upgrade Dual Fill & Drain Pump on Rear PNP

[The Hulk]

this pump is beefy!!!!: about 8.5" tall, 5-5.5" round bottom oval shape and weight is a meaty 5lbs even. comparing this to the standard 1100gph pumps i would think its gotta pump more liek 3x as fast given the size and weight of this motor.. should be interesting to see results and where it will fit. the plan is to find a way to plumb 4 of these (1-fill/drain) per rear side. 

size reference pic next to a coffee cup

[malibuskier2003]

27 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

this pump is beefy!!!!: about 8.5" tall, 5-5.5" round bottom oval shape and weight is a meaty 5lbs even. comparing this to the standard 1100gph pumps i would think its gotta pump more liek 3x as fast given the size and weight of this motor.. should be interesting to see results and where it will fit. the plan is to find a way to plumb 4 of these (1-fill/drain) per rear side. 

size reference pic next to a coffee cup

Damn that's a lot of monitors!

[The Hulk]

haha... mission control!

6x24" i was going to do 9 a while back but then you have to move your head to much... 6 is perfect!

[hunter77ah]

What size hose do you need to get the most out of that pump?

 

 

Edit:

I saw the earlier posts, but what size is actually required.

Edited October 11, 2016 by hunter77ah
Emphasis.

[The Hulk]

i was confused on the hose sizes: but i now realized that the OUTPUT port is 1-1/8" OD size: and has a 15/16" ID.

  so the Hose you would connect to output port would be 1-1/8" ID. as listed on specs. 

the intake is female 1" which is about 1-1/8" size which accepts MALE 1" thread 1-1/8" OD.. so intake ID would be standard 1" ID. 

this pump must just be able to pump at a much higher pressure/speed through similar size hose? i dont recall if the standard 1100s in the malibu are plumbed with 1" or 1-1/8" hose?

If the standard malibu 1100s have 1-1/8" i might consider swapping these everywhere they could fit... although it might be a waste because the whole reason for these 4 is to get the fill/drain times similar to the other hard tanks...so if i speed up the other hard tanks then its pointless i guess.. 

 

Edited October 11, 2016 by The Hulk

[MLA]

22 minutes ago, hunter77ah said:

What size hose do you need to get the most out of that pump?

 

 

Edit:

I saw the earlier posts, but what size is actually required.

That pump has a 1.125" barb outlet. So if your sac fittings are 1.125", then use 1.125" hose for the sake of ease. However, 1" can be used with no measurable change in flow. 

[The Hulk]

Just now, MLA said:

That pump has a 1.125" barb outlet. So if your sac fittings are 1.125", then use 1.125" hose for the sake of ease. However, 1" can be used with no measurable change in flow. 

my guess is thats because the output port ID is already just under 1" or to be exact 15/16" so its limited to its fullest at the OUTPUT BARB correct? meaning dropping down to a 1" ID hose means no difference? or is there any static pressure that builds up with thinner 1" hose over the course of 4-6ft?

Edited October 11, 2016 by The Hulk

[MLA]

Just now, The Hulk said:

my guess is thats because the output port ID is already just under 1" or to be exact 15/16" so its limited to its fullest at the OUTPUT BARB correct? meaning dropping down to a 1" ID hose means no difference? or is there any static pressure that builds up with thinner 1" hose over the course of 4-6ft?

In my testing, I found that the difference in ID between sac fittings had way more effect on pump flow than hose ID. Another factor beyond friction in the hose, is that a 1.125 ID hose holds more water than a 1" ID hose, which equals more head pressure on a an aerator pump. This can make a difference over a 2-3 lift and 4-6 hose run. In the end, I think they cancel each other out. 

[teamerickson]

25 minutes ago, MLA said:

In my testing, I found that the difference in ID between sac fittings had way more effect on pump flow than hose ID. Another factor beyond friction in the hose, is that a 1.125 ID hose holds more water than a 1" ID hose, which equals more head pressure on a an aerator pump. This can make a difference over a 2-3 lift and 4-6 hose run. In the end, I think they cancel each other out. 

This is why I like the Sumo or Wakemakers bags. Larger ID fittings.

[teamerickson]

@The Hulk Are you replacing the stock pumps?

[minnmarker]

25 minutes ago, MLA said:

In my testing, I found that the difference in ID between sac fittings had way more effect on pump flow than hose ID. Another factor beyond friction in the hose, is that a 1.125 ID hose holds more water than a 1" ID hose, which equals more head pressure on a an aerator pump. This can make a difference over a 2-3 lift and 4-6 hose run. In the end, I think they cancel each other out. 

Pretty much a +1 on this except a larger diameter hose has nothing to do with head pressure. A 1-1/8" hose will always have less resistance than a 1" hose.  In the case of our ballast systems the difference is probably not enough to justify the increased difficulty in routing the larger hose.

[MLA]

6 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

except a larger diameter hose has nothing to do with head pressure.

It does when it hold more water. 

[minnmarker]

3 minutes ago, MLA said:

It does when it hold more water. 

Nope.  For an extreme example, there is less head pressure 1 foot under the Pacific ocean than there is at the bottom of an 18 inch drinking straw.

[The Hulk]

26 minutes ago, teamerickson said:

@The Hulk Are you replacing the stock pumps?

No going to add two of these with through hulls plumbed directly into each rear bag. then on the BACK of the bags i was Hopping to fit one of these on each side as well, but havent sized it up yet and may be stuck with adding additional smaller 1100s if these wont fit. 

Now, my theory goes that the rears take 3-4 x longer to fill than everything else: everything has a single 1100 fill now, so if adding these then my rears should be about 3100 fills and hopefully equal out times for all 4 tanks F/C/LR/RR. Now if i'm still taking longer to fill/drain i could possibly consider swapping out the 1100s on the rears only to these as well giving me 4000gph fill ...assuming i need to and if things fit...thats the question> i just ordered one pump to start seeing if things can fit..

Edited October 11, 2016 by The Hulk

[The Hulk]

46 minutes ago, MLA said:

In my testing, I found that the difference in ID between sac fittings had way more effect on pump flow than hose ID. Another factor beyond friction in the hose, is that a 1.125 ID hose holds more water than a 1" ID hose, which equals more head pressure on a an aerator pump. This can make a difference over a 2-3 lift and 4-6 hose run. In the end, I think they cancel each other out. 

ok so now another trick question: i'm confused on the vent-loops as WM only sells a 1": ... So is 1" the ID of the vent loop anti siphon? and it fits 1-1/8" hose? or does that meant the 1" vent loops fits 1" hose and thus the ID of the vent loops is even less than 1" (meaning) less than the PUMP 15/16" ID on the outport barb of pump and thus vent loop would then be the bottle neck of the system?

I did find some 1-1/8" vent loops online but for like $65 ! Ouch! via West Marine and other places. I'm hesitant on the check valves as i'm worried it will restrict flow as from what i understand all these pumps dont have a lot or pressure to work with. so i figured the anti siphon loops are best route for max flow

Does anyone know what the standard HOSE size is on the malibu ballast systems are they 1" hose or 1-1/8" hose, there seems to always be an abundance of silicone squirting out of all malibu plumbing jobs on the hoses/barbs: is that standard or necessary when you have hose clamps? it almost seemed like the hoses might be bigger than the barbs a tad? anyone with info on this? and whats standard etc?

[minnmarker]

This is very interesting.  Those pumps are reasonably priced and one Amazon reviewer said he was able to get 1" hose on the barbs.  Will be following your progress.  Right now my fill or drain takes about 14 minutes.  Would love to speed that up.

I assume these are one direction pumps.  Do they hold back flow like an impeller pump or will they leak back?

[The Hulk]

Just now, minnmarker said:

This is very interesting.  Those pumps are reasonably priced and one Amazon reviewer said he was able to get 1" hose on the barbs.  Will be following your progress.  Right now my fill or drain takes about 14 minutes.  Would love to speed that up.

I assume these are one direction pumps.  Do they hold back flow like an impeller pump or will they leak back?

the output barb is 1-1/8" so not sure how far that hose stretches.. but i think you could simply use a piece of 1-1/8" hose to attach to pump, then use a 1-1/8"-to-1" barb reducer easily:

i also take at least around 15 mins (never timed it) to fill, and draining always seems longer but never timed either...just know if i could get the rears to similar timeframe as the center and front i'd be happy.. 

these are very similar to the 1100s i guess you could say just way more massive and heavier/bigger. so i assume they will operate exact same way just more pressure/faster/bigger/stronger. yes 1-way only. 

depending on the ROOM in your boats you may have room to swap factory 1100s with one of these if they are too tall you could try a 90deg off the through hull and mount them on the side: The only issue is that these draw 10A (no idea if thats peak) and its rated for a 15A fuse. Not sure if the exsisting wires for the 1100s will handle the 10A or reduce motor power any if too small starving a bit of juice to the motors...the AWG on these motors is 16AWG but somewhere int he manual i think it said if over 20ft or something go to bigger 14awg. I also dont recall the FUSE size for malibu ballast pumps are they 5A or 10A? 

[MLA]

We've been using 1" hose on 1.125" barb for years. no need for extra connections and clamps with awkward adapters. Just warm the end of the hose and fit it right over the barb. 

5 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

assume these are one direction pumps

Yes, they are nothing more than a standard livewell aerator pump.

6 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

Do they hold back flow like an impeller pump or will they leak back?

The will allow passive flow back through the pump, so system design and hose routing is much different than when using an impeller pump. However, there are thousands of functioning aerator ballast systems out there. They bullet proof, quite, draw way less current and you can build a system thats just as fast. 

[The Hulk]

26 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

Nope.  For an extreme example, there is less head pressure 1 foot under the Pacific ocean than there is at the bottom of an 18 inch drinking straw.

ok so this brings me back to the idea of using 1" ID hose? becasue the pump outport barb is 15/16" ID, if i use a 1-1/8" hose with a 1-1/8"-to-1" reducer then 1" tube in theory i'm keeping "nearly" identical ID throughout the system and thus when the hose goes upwards say 3-4ft UP to the vent tube that pressure would be less on the pump (less water in the hose) compared to using larger 1-1/8" hose correct?

the real question is what is the ID of wakemakers 1" Vent Loop.. if its 1" then great" but i fear it fits 1" hose and thus its ID is maybe only 3/4"? any info on this? if the ID was truely 1" then it would fit 1-1/8" hose i would think. 

Edited October 11, 2016 by The Hulk

[MLA]

24 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

Nope.  For an extreme example, there is less head pressure 1 foot under the Pacific ocean than there is at the bottom of an 18 inch drinking straw.

Ok, then explain how filling into the bottom of a sac with an aerator pump is slower than filling into the top of the sac. If its not an increase in head pressure on the pump, then what is it?

[The Hulk]

also i am guessing if the BAG fittings are 1-1/8" hose barb then their internal ID is going to be slightly less than 1" as well (just like my pump output) right?

[The Hulk]

Just now, MLA said:

Ok, then explain how filling into the bottom of a sac with an aerator pump is slower than filling into the top of the sac. If its not an increase in head pressure on the pump, then what is it?

i think what he was saying is the weight of the water above the pump (vertically in the hose) as head pressure possibly: but on the other end of the hose if filling into the bottom of the bag you would have more of a blocking pressure i guess?

[MLA]

17 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

ok so now another trick question: i'm confused on the vent-loops as WM only sells a 1": ... So is 1" the ID of the vent loop anti siphon? and it fits 1-1/8" hose? or does that meant the 1" vent loops fits 1" hose and thus the ID of the vent loops is even less than 1" (meaning) less than the PUMP 15/16" ID on the outport barb of pump and thus vent loop would then be the bottle neck of the system?

I did find some 1-1/8" vent loops online but for like $65 ! Ouch! via West Marine and other places. I'm hesitant on the check valves as i'm worried it will restrict flow as from what i understand all these pumps dont have a lot or pressure to work with. so i figured the anti siphon loops are best route for max flow

Does anyone know what the standard HOSE size is on the malibu ballast systems are they 1" hose or 1-1/8" hose, there seems to always be an abundance of silicone squirting out of all malibu plumbing jobs on the hoses/barbs: is that standard or necessary when you have hose clamps? it almost seemed like the hoses might be bigger than the barbs a tad? anyone with info on this? and whats standard etc?

Lets get the easy stuff out da way. Your Bu is build with 1.125" hose. 

When talking hose, you refer to it by its inner diameter. when talking about the hose fittings, you refer to the fittings OD. So in the case of the loop you are looking at, the 1" designation should indicate the barb's OD as it should fit 1" hose ID. 

With the right check valve, you will not notice a restriction. I ONLY use check valve and have never used a vented loop. 

Its OK to fit a 1" hose over a 1.125" fitting but it dont work the other way around. You will not have success crimping down 1.125" hose on a 1" fitting. 

[The Hulk]

someone once told me that water-flow is similar to electricity: so if thats the case perhaps it WOULD be better to have the larger 1-1/8" ID hose between pump and bag, even though pump output barb and bag inputs are probably around 15/16" each (less than 1") ?

for example the pump comes with 16awg but if wiring over x-distance you should increase to 14awg; but obviously you would cut the wire near the pump and it would be reduced back down to 16awg right at the pump but your not restricting the flow of current over the longer distance only at the last second , have no idea if this works same way with water-flow and pressure/

[minnmarker]

Just now, MLA said:

Ok, then explain how filling into the bottom of a sac with an aerator pump is slower than filling into the top of the sac. If its not an increase in head pressure on the pump, then what is it?

I'll take your word on the faster fill on top.  Even so, it is not head pressure related since there would be more head pressure at the top if the top was above the water level (say due to air in the bag) - so it probably has to do with the incoming water at the bottom encountering, and having to accelerate (move) the water it encounters when exiting the hose or fitting.

Just now, MLA said: