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2017 LSV 23 - Wetsounds Stereo

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shawndoggy

Tim I think the answer to "in the end does it matter?" Is YES! All I am asking is how you get a material that cannot be glued to seal? Cnc isn't magic, just a precise way to cut. If one of your biggest retailers and online surrogates won't advocate the use of the material because it can't be glued, all I am asking is what you guys have done to get over that problem?  For instance I could see how really tight and precise rabbet joints (something a cnc machine would be perfect for) could help. But just cutting with cnc doesn't magically seal an unsealed box any more than it would if you cut mdf with a cnc and only screwed it together. 

Or maybe you are saying "still sub optimum but at least we are trying to screw together to seal it instead of just using staples as in years past."  Which I totally would get. Sometimes when you can't be the best just trying harder still makes a difference. 

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mrnate450r
32 minutes ago, wetsounds1 said:

There is a lot in the works. Currently the upgrade to a single pair of REV 10 would be adding a a regular amp and pair of speakers with a adapter that is waterproof plug to RCA. Not a big deal and besides the adapter, no different than years past. The DSP is built into each amp. Your not bypassing anything. Next they could do an adapter and use the Wet Sounds DSP version of the amp like the SYN DX4DSP bridging it to 400x2 and have DSP. There is options. Lots of this is very new. That's what I am saying. So new that our site isn't updated yet and a lot of dealers are not trained yet. 

 

Tim

Wet Sounds

This is what I plan to do. If it is as easy as an adapter and new amp, I'm in! I prefer the warmer sound of the Rev 10, and is a must for my boat. 

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shawndoggy
36 minutes ago, wetsounds1 said:

There is a lot in the works. Currently the upgrade to a single pair of REV 10 would be adding a a regular amp and pair of speakers with a adapter that is waterproof plug to RCA. Not a big deal and besides the adapter, no different than years past. The DSP is built into each amp. Your not bypassing anything. Next they could do an adapter and use the Wet Sounds DSP version of the amp like the SYN DX4DSP bridging it to 400x2 and have DSP. There is options. Lots of this is very new. That's what I am saying. So new that our site isn't updated yet and a lot of dealers are not trained yet. 

 

Tim

Wet Sounds

I'm unclear -- Are you guys offering these plug and play RCA adapters? Or are they an industry standard part?

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Murphy8166
29 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Tim I think the answer to "in the end does it matter?" Is YES! All I am asking is how you get a material that cannot be glued to seal? Cnc isn't magic, just a precise way to cut. If one of your biggest retailers and online surrogates won't advocate the use of the material because it can't be glued, all I am asking is what you guys have done to get over that problem?  For instance I could see how really tight and precise rabbet joints (something a cnc machine would be perfect for) could help. But just cutting with cnc doesn't magically seal an unsealed box any more than it would if you cut mdf with a cnc and only screwed it together. 

Or maybe you are saying "still sub optimum but at least we are trying to screw together to seal it instead of just using staples as in years past."  Which I totally would get. Sometimes when you can't be the best just trying harder still makes a difference. 

How do you know it can't be glued or sealed...

From King Starboard..." It is preferable to mechanically fasten or weld King StarBoard®, but when an adhesive is necessary you can use a product called Lord 7542-AB or 3M’s Scotch-Weld DP-8005."

If you google it you will find lots of info regarding the topic.

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shawndoggy
10 minutes ago, Murphy8166 said:

How do you know it can't be glued or sealed...

 

Because Tim said so earlier in the thread, and David has said so repeatedly over the years.  

Have you tried that scotch weld stuff Murph?  Were you happy with the results?

Holy cow it's expensive!  .3 oz for $40 on amazon.  

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Murphy8166
Just now, shawndoggy said:

Because Tim said so earlier in the thread, and David has said so repeatedly over the years.  

Have you tried that scotch weld stuff Murph?  Were you happy with the results?

Holy cow it's expensive!  .3 oz for $40 on amazon.  

All I can see is that he said "silicone" won't stick.

I have never used it - so just going on what I see from the manufacturer.

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shawndoggy

Every thread I've seen from David says something along the lines of "starboard won't work because you can't get an adhesive to adhere to it.  If somebody has a recommendation...." and then he usually suggests using pvc instead because you can glue it.  In any event it doesn't sound like Malibu/WS are going to glue the box even if an adhesive is available.

LOL if you or I or IXFE came on here and posted a thread called "I'm thinking of making a sub box from starboard" we'd be universally told not to do it.  I'm just trying to figure out how WS has solved these issues.  

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SimonWS

The material used is the King StarLite XL, not King StarBoard.  Comparing the physical properties between them you can see that the StarLite XL is a little more malleable than StarBoard.  When the pieces are forced together by screwing them together they conform to each other creating a better seal than StarBoard.

The new enclosures sound good and reproduce accurate bass.  The 21VLX doesn't have one and is mounted free air.  The subwoofer isn't a free air model but with the DSP controls and flexibility, we are really able to dial in the bass on that boat.  That being said, we are able to manipulate the sound curve for optimum sound tailored to the acoustics of the boat.

Simon

Wet Sounds
 

Edited by SimonWS

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shawndoggy
33 minutes ago, SimonWS said:

The material used is the King StarLite XL, not King StarBoard.  Comparing the physical properties between them you can see that the StarLite XL is a little more malleable than StarBoard.  When the pieces are forced together by screwing them together they conform to each other creating a better seal than StarBoard.

So one of the other digs on starboard and pvc and other plastics is that they flex laterally.  If you are saying this stuff is softer, how do you get around the flex?

There's an old "gamchanger" joke in the cycling industry about how each new frame material or design is "laterally stiff and vertically compliant."  

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SimonWS
1 hour ago, shawndoggy said:

So one of the other digs on starboard and pvc and other plastics is that they flex laterally.  If you are saying this stuff is softer, how do you get around the flex?

There's an old "gamchanger" joke in the cycling industry about how each new frame material or design is "laterally stiff and vertically compliant."  

MDF or wood will laterally flex too.  Out of the hundreds of sub boxes I've built, there was a significant amount of times the wood was warped or not completely flat.  As long as the cuts were straight and square; the trick to building a quality box was all how it was nailed together to make sure all the edges lined up.  Once the box was assembled and each panel was fixed on all sides, there wasn't any flex in the panel.

Point here is that sure the material will flex some if you just have a single piece of it, but strengthens up a lot once assembled into an enclosure.

Now lets take a look at the density of the material vs MDF.  StarLite XL density is .77g/cm3 & MDF is .75g/cm3.  That spec of MDF is on the upper end of the density range of MDF.

The new boxes are better than the past, sealed way better, uses material slightly denser than MDF, and built out of 3/4" StarLite XL with screws every 3".  Malibu listens to the feedback from consumers and dealers to improve their product, and they did!

Edited by SimonWS

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SimonWS
Just now, DarkSide said:

@SimonWS this group NEVER LIKES ANYTHING initially.  A year from now posts will likely read new WS is a huge improvement over my previous Rockford.  

The first 300 posts will all be skepticism.  I applaud WS for coming on here and sharing useful information.

LOL Green eggs and ham?

Thanks!  We just want to bring the facts to the crew of what the system is, so there isn't a guessing game or question of what it is.  Like anything else, the best thing is to get on the product and check it out first hand! And I'm not just talking about the stereo but the entire lineup from Malibu!

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IXFE
4 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

@SimonWS this group NEVER LIKES ANYTHING initially.  A year from now posts will likely read new WS is a huge improvement over my previous Rockford.  

The first 300 posts will all be skepticism.  I applaud WS for coming on here and sharing useful information.

I agree... It's a nice improvement over the RF systems.  I don't think Shawn is questioning that.

He's simply pointing out a bit of hypocrisy... If I dropped into the stereo forum and announced that I was building a sub enclosure out of plastic and screws, I WOULD BE CRUCIFIED!!

That said I can totally see why Malibu would use plastic and not any form of wood on a factory build.  Just don't pretend like it's ideal.  Not when all your surrogates have been lecturing otherwise  

 

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shawndoggy

LOL hope you aren't referring to me @DarkSide.  I'm not casting judgment and in fact my first comment in this thread was that the whole DSP scenario was a great move.

I'm just trying to figure out how WS is going to build a sub box out of a material that's difficult to work with and that nobody actually uses for  "good" sub boxes.

I understand the Simon's density argument.  I'm not a materials engineer, but my suspicion is that density is only part of the story and that you need to look at the bonds within the material to determine stiffness. I mean I know I've worked with pieces of starboard that are heavier than plywood and also flex more than plywood.  So the mass of plywood is less but it also flexes less (probably because of opposing grain?).

Anyhow, the common wisdom seems to be "don't use starboard or its lighter cousin, starboard XL for sub boxes.  Can't properly seal it, and it's flexy."  

@DavidI would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Edited by shawndoggy

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mrnate450r

Another thing to point out is that since they are not glued together, if you really wanted a box made of MDF the template is already there. Just unscrew it, trace it, cut MDF, glue, screw, waterproof, and reinstall. 

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shawndoggy
Just now, mrnate450r said:

Another thing to point out is that since they are not glued together, if you really wanted a box made of MDF the template is already there. Just unscrew it, trace it, cut MDF, glue, screw, waterproof, and reinstall. 

assuming the starboard kick plate isn't the sixth side of the box.

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SimonWS
3 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

LOL hope you aren't referring to me @DarkSide.  I'm not casting judgment and in fact my first comment in this thread was that the whole DSP scenario was a great move.

I'm just trying to figure out how WS is going to build a sub box out of a material that's difficult to work with and that nobody actually uses for  "good" sub boxes.

I understand the Simon's density argument.  I'm not a materials engineer, but my suspicion is that density is only part of the story and that you need to look at the bonds within the material to determine stiffness. I mean I know I've worked with pieces of starboard that are heavier than plywood and also flex more than plywood.  So the mass of plywood is less but it also flexes less (probably because of opposing grain?).

Anyhow, the common wisdom seems to be "don't use starboard or its lighter cousin, starboard XL for sub boxes.  Can't properly seal it, and it's flexy."  

@DavidI would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Malibu actually builds the box.  We work with them on the specs.

I'll say this... I wouldn't hesitate to use the 3/4" StarLite XL to build a typical sealed sub box for a boat -- besides the price of material.

Shawn, yes there are more physical properties that have to deal with that.  I originally looked them to compare to standard starboard to back up what I've seen with my own eyes and how StarLite XL is a better fit than regular starboard.

It's like anything else.  If there is a downside to using a specific material, but have to work within certain parameters (in this case using something that is waterproof unlike wood), then find a replacement or solution.  The answer here is a material that is slightly more malleable to help it seal.

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tn_rider
7 minutes ago, SimonWS said:

Malibu actually builds the box.  We work with them on the specs.

I'll say this... I wouldn't hesitate to use the 3/4" StarLite XL to build a typical sealed sub box for a boat -- besides the price of material.

Shawn, yes there are more physical properties that have to deal with that.  I originally looked them to compare to standard starboard to back up what I've seen with my own eyes and how StarLite XL is a better fit than regular starboard.

It's like anything else.  If there is a downside to using a specific material, but have to work within certain parameters (in this case using something that is waterproof unlike wood), then find a replacement or solution.  The answer here is a material that is slightly more malleable to help it seal.

PM Sent. Thanks

 

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teamerickson

This is just me but I think I would build a system using the base cabins and sub from factory. Then ad rev10s and amp. If I didn't like the sub enclosure I could get the Q Bomb! Then, when the DSP amps are available I would consider swapping the tower amp.

Edited by teamerickson

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DarkSide

@shawndoggy no not you or anyone in particular.  Just reread the thread.   A lot of negativity.  

I absolutely agree with you this is an improvement and I also agree with @IXFE he would be crucified posting a non glued "sealed" box.  

Just was saying it is great they actually came on here to provide real information and don't get run off by the negativity!  The information is appreciated and I am certain this is an improvement over RF gear.

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TallRedRider

I glued carpet to the king Starboard I used on my kickplate and it stuck like a MoFo.  So I never quite understood the can't glue starboard thing.  I argued with David about it.  But in fairness, I did not try and glue starboard to starboard.  But my carpet stuck solid with the liquid nails stuff I bought at Lowe's.  

Let's suppose you make a box out of MDF or whatever and don't seal the corners...Like Hillary said...'What difference does it make?'  I am not sure that those teeny tiny air leaks are going to make any audible difference.  Especially not much difference when out on the lake with people chatting, wind blowing or worse yet, a V8 motor running.  I am not too worried about it.  Even the best made box likely has air leaks where the subwoofer is mounted, or where the wires come in.  

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Ronnie

You've got carpet glued to Starboard all over your boats. Check your seat risers and trim panels.

1. I have no idea if these CNC'd boxes will seal but they will fit better than a box you make in your garage. You can't cut as straight as a CNC with the saw in your garage.

2. Raw MDF is not sealed even if you seal the seams and corners. We have a CNC router. The bed holds a full sheet of MDF (49"X97"). We use a full of sheet of MDF mounted to the bed as a base. It has a very strong vacuum system that pulls the vacuum THROUGH the base 3/4" sheet of MDF and holds down the work piece. We can lay a sheet of MDF, Plywood or any other machinable product on the base and the vacuum will hold it down for machining. It's being held down because the MDF is porous enough to let the air flow through it.

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Fman

@wetsounds1 @simonWS is the Malibu WS sub box comparable to this box? (I am not kidding either, seriously...) this Qbomb is 1.3 cu ft sealed and well built for $56, have been using it for the past two years with zero problems and great results.  I am pretty sure this one does not leak any air either.

QBOMB12SSINGLE__37527.1406268100.1280.12

Gimme some of that Qbomb! :thumbup:

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