Battery charging and Blue Seas 7610 problems

[TallRedRider]

I installed a Minn Kota 3 bank charger, 15 amps per lead.  3rd bank is off for now (will probably add a 3rd battery later).  

I have a 2 battery system with a Blue Sea 7610 voltage sensitive relay.  It combines the batteries when they get to a certain voltage.   1 lead is connected to each battery, with grounds to the same battery as the charging lead.  The charger is fully capable of charging each battery separately.  

Here is the problem:  When I get home from the lake I plug the charger in, and it starts working just fine.  When the battery voltage increases, the VSR engages and combines the batteries, then quite often, my charger does not like that, and one lead gets an error code (just a red light, so nothing specific to go on).  Then the error code goes off and it starts to charge on that lead, then the other lead gets the error code and it goes back and forth from one to another repeatedly, forever.  Other times, both leads charge just fine and all is peachy (rare).   Other times, all is charging well until when one lead reaches full charge, it causes an error code in the other lead and the other lead stays that way permanently while the first lead stays in float mode.   I don't think this 3rd situation is all bad, because the batteries are combined and held in float mode together, but it still is weird that sometimes both leads are in float mode and do fine.  

 

I think what is happening is that the combining of the batteries causes a sudden voltage change that makes my charger freak out.   And then it senses a voltage increase when one lead is charging and stops charging again, then the opposite lead does the same until the second lead tries to kick in and so on.   And then other times, when one lead senses full charge, the sudden shut down into float mode causes an error in the other side.  

 

I think the solution will be to connect both leads to the same battery.  That gets me 30 amps of charging to one battery until they combine, then it will be 30 amps to both batteries which will not likely be a problem.  The Minn Kota support person was a woman who I felt had very little working knowledge about their products (call me a sexist pig, I know her gender had nothing to do with her knowledge base).  She told me I could not connect 2 leads to the same battery, but the FAQ page on their website says you can, just watch the electrolyte level because it may dry out the battery quicker because of the faster charge.  

Has anyone seen this sort of problem with the Blue Sea System?  Would combining the leads to the same battery solve the issue, but still charge both batteries?  

[shawndoggy]

haha I KNOW you had this same problem in the past, maybe as far back as your MC?

Do you have a battery switch with the 7610?  If it is wired correctly (with battery leads and vsr leads on different posts), and is switched to OFF when you are plugged in, the batteries shouldn't combine because they should be totally disconnected from one another.

If you don't want to rewire the back of the battery switch, or if you don't have one, then you need to hook up a relay that disconnects the small ground wire that goes to the 7610 so that the 7610 is disabled when the key is off.  

See my response near the bottom of your 2010 MC thread for how to wire up the bosch relay to disable the 7610 when key is off: http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=783146

Edited May 27, 2016 by shawndoggy

[MLA]

Is this ACR factory in the new boat? did they also use the correct 4 post dual circuit plus switch? Sounds like the ACR is wired to the battery side of the switch and it needs to be wired to the boat side of the switch. This isolates the ACR from the batteries and charger when the switch is off. Prevents the ACR from activating on charger voltage. 

[TallRedRider]

SD...Home dawg got a good memory.   The problem then was a little different because I did not have a charger at the time and the ACR would draw power down from the batteries until the reached 12.7 volts.  It was not designed for the AGM batteries that stayed at 13 volts.    

Mike, I think you might be on to something.   It is the factory Nautique system.  It is always active, even when the battery switch is in the off position, which I guess would only make sense if I had a single charging lead (or the alternator only).  

It looks like this, and is wired like this.  So the batteries have straight connections to the ACR, even when the switch is in the off position.  I think this picture is one from Blue Sea themselves.  

[shawndoggy]

yes, different cause, but same problem.... voltage above the combining threshold is combining the batteries even when the switch is off.  In one case because of the charger, or in another case because of the agm batteries.

Wire it like this and it will work as intended (as you can see from your diagram, the problem is that the batteries are always subject to combining even when the switch is off, because the VSR "shorts" the switch.... the acr and the batteries need to be on different switch posts):

Edited May 28, 2016 by shawndoggy

[MLA]

right switch for the ACR, its just the the ACR is connected to the wrong posts for when a charger is in use. Need to move the ACR leads to the ther #1 and #2 posts. CC is not the only one thats gotten this wrong. 

[shawndoggy]

Just now, MLA said:

right switch for the ACR, its just the the ACR is connected to the wrong posts for when a charger is in use. Need to move the ACR leads to the ther #1 and #2 posts. CC is not the only one thats gotten this wrong. 

no kidding. blue sea got it wrong with their own instructions!

 

[MLA]

Just now, shawndoggy said:

no kidding. blue sea got it wrong with their own instructions!

 

only wrong if a charger is in the scheme, other wise, it works fine. Add the charger and the ACR sees the voltage and closes. 

[TallRedRider]

Thanks so much for the new diagram.  Running a lead all the way from the batteries under the floor in the center of the boat to the helm where the switch is located is likely to be very painful now that the boat is constructed.  Plus another $75 in battery cables.  Plus here is what the back of that switch currently looks like:  It is a serious rat's nest.  I was not looking exactly at the switch when I took this, so it is cut off, but you get the idea as to how they have multiplied the connections back there.  

 

[jbower]

That looks absolutely horrible. Whoever put that pile of copper together should be fired

Then again with all that stuff  it would be hard to clean it up a whole lot more

[shawndoggy]

TRR why will you need to run new battery cables?  Can't you just leave the batteries connected as is, but remove the vsr and its connections and run those cables to the different posts on the switch?

It shouldn't take more than 2' of cable (two 12" cables) to connect the vsr to the switch.

[MLA]

So if im reading your post right, the ACR is in the bilge between the batteries? If so, I agree with SD, move the ACR to under the helm close to the switch. Two battery cables and one small ground is all thats needed to reconnect. 

[TallRedRider]

Yes, the VSR is currently located between the batteries in the center floor of the boat, and the switch is located in the walkway on the driver's side.  

Brilliant!  I could use the very same cables that are currently between the batteries and ACR, which are about 2-3 feet long, and move the ACR up by the helm.  The little ground wire would be pretty easily run to a ground bar that is located up under there.  The access to the compartment is pretty cramped, but it could be done, especially if you have long arms:).   I would just not have easy access to the unit to verify it is operating properly.  They do make a remote LED light if I wanted to get real serious about it.  Although my understanding is that the ACR is a very reliable part, and should not need much babysitting.  Is that true?  

[shawndoggy]

The only reason you might want to look at it is just to make sure it's still actually working (if it's not, could be that the ACR is working fine but you have a bad battery or something).  FYI, you don't need to buy the blue sea LED... you can hook up any old LED to the LED indicator switch. I bought a nice looking one on ebay for a buck.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/371514980349?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Edited May 28, 2016 by shawndoggy

[MLA]

it would be easy to wire in a discrete LED for the ACR

[minnmarker]

It would be easier to totally remove the switch and put a single bank charger on the stereo battery. Why do you really need the switch, for all practical purposes? Charging works great with charger only on one battery with ACR. Real life experience.  KISS principle is best IMHO.

[MLA]

10 hours ago, minnmarker said:

Charging works great with charger only on one battery with ACR

Couldnt disagree more. This is the root of this thread. This boat is set up with a dual bank battery system in which one battery is designated to cranking duties and the other is dedicated to house duties. This requires a different charge profile from a charger, which is the reason a dual bank is desired. Having the ACR combine during charging, creates one large bank consisting of 2 batteries at different states of charger. This defeats the purpose of have that dual bank charger. It prevents the charger from conditioning the recharging each battery based on its current state of charge. 

Wont even get into the logistics of rewiring the boat if the switch was removed.  

[TallRedRider]

Here is what the back of the switch looks like.  If you look carefully, you can see where each post is labeled 1 or 2.  It is nothing like what I can find on the Blue Sea website.  The top and far right ones are both labeled '1'.  The left and bottom are labeled '2'.   The right hand one and the bottom one are only connected with one cable that goes into neverneverland, so I think those are the battery leads.  I will connect the ACR to the top and left leads so that it is shut off when the switch is off.    

 

[MLA]

With the switch off, using a volt meter, find the #1 and #2 that do not have voltage. Those are the posts on the boat side of the switch that you want to connect the ACR leads to.

[TallRedRider]

Resurrecting an old thread.  It really sucks that Photobucket robbed all of our diagrams.  I finally got around to getting this installed.  I spent the last 2 years with the Blue Sea ACR just removed.  

I installed the ACR under the helm with the charging leads going to the switch instead of directly to the batteries.  I also did a remote LED like SD recommended above, and put it under the dash so that I can see if they are combined.  I just did this today, so am not sure how well it works, but I do know that when I hooked up my charger, it seemed to work just fine.  

I will update all that. 

But I am curious how the LED remote indicator works.  Mine does not work, but I did not wire it like it shows here:  http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990170140.pdf  But I cannot understand how it works.  It looks like the LED is permanently connected to the battery on one end of the wire and the Blue Sea ACR on the other end with the LED in between.  Doesn't that mean that the LED is always on because it is connected to the battery?  I just expected the LED tab to put out voltage when combined, but there is no voltage at the LED spade when combined.  How does it work?  

Am I supposed to connect the positive of the LED to the battery and negative to the spade on the ACR?  

[MLA]

5 hours ago, TallRedRider said:

but I do know that when I hooked up my charger, it seemed to work just fine. 

Sounds like the ACR is still on the battery side of the switch, rather then the boat side. The ACR should not indicate the charger is working and the switch should be off.

5 hours ago, TallRedRider said:

Mine does not work, but I did not wire it like it shows here:  http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990170140.pdf  But I cannot understand how it works.  It looks like the LED is permanently connected to the battery on one end of the wire and the Blue Sea ACR on the other end with the LED in between.  Doesn't that mean that the LED is always on because it is connected to the battery? 

LEDs are polarity sensitive, so make sure you identify its + and - side, then follow that diagram, including a mall fuse. The LED will have B+ and the ACR supplies the B- when combined. Id grab my B+ under the helm from something that on the boat side of the switch, not battery direct. 

[shawndoggy]

I think the acr "makes ground" for the LED when combined and then it will turn on.  

[TallRedRider]

I will put the ground for the LED to the ACR and see if that works.  I have it grounded to the boat, and expected the ACR to provide the +, which is obviously incorrect.  

I first wanted to test my remote light, and since the ACR has sat on the shelf gathering dust for 22 months or so, I also wanted to see if that worked, so I put it direct to the batteries.  Once I am sure the remote works, I move it to the right posts.  

Here is the diagram that Photobucket now won't let us see.  Here is how I think it is best to do a battery charger with the ACR and battery combiner switch:  I will report back when I see how it all works after a few trips.  It would be nice if it showed the LED with a red wire to battery and black wire to the ACR.  

Thank you guys for your help!  

[TallRedRider]

It has worked perfect.  There is not a lot of space for the leads from the ACR since they have the giant fuse associated with them, but I was able to make it fit.  I mounted the ACR inside the dash and put a small red LED indicator light through the gelcoat on the right side.  I think it is not super bright to be bothersome at night, and it is bright enough to see during the day.  It has worked perfectly so far.  When I first start the motor the LED indicates that the batteries are not combined, but then it comes on when the ACR combines the battieries.  

When I turn the batteries off, all is well with the charger, and the ACR is no longer involved at that time.