Piggy back system reviews

[kerpluxal]

20 minutes ago, SnubNose said:

Seriously it's not a good system. It's given me problems this whole season. I called themy yesterday and gave them a very specific details on what was going on. They were supposed to get back to me but never did. I called them again today and was on hold for an hour no joke and resulted in leaving a voice-mail. 

This system really needs a Y from the fill line with a valve so you can choose whether to fill hard tank or sac or both. Possibly even a drain pump.

Yep.... I am redoing mine the way Malibu does theirs:

1. Fill hard tank 
2. Overflow of hard tank to bag
3. Overflow on bag = vent line
4. Drain into tank (and I have a drain pump on the bag that is wired with the drain pump on hard tank)

Have not set mine up this way as of yet... but it will be real soon.

[SnubNose]

Just now, kerpluxal said:

Yep.... I am redoing mine the way Malibu does theirs:

1. Fill hard tank 
2. Overflow of hard tank to bag
3. Overflow on bag = vent line
4. Drain into tank (and I have a drain pump on the bag that is wired with the drain pump on hard tank)

Have not set mine up this way as of yet... but it will be real soon.

Can you tell us what parts we need to convert ours ? 

[kerpluxal]

Just now, SnubNose said:

Can you tell us what parts we need to convert ours ? 

are your lines 3/4 or 1 1/8?

[SnubNose]

1 minute ago, kerpluxal said:

are your lines 3/4 or 1 1/8?

1 1/8

[kerpluxal]

Just now, SnubNose said:

1 1/8

 

That is somewhat of what I am doing... but here is Malibu's:

https://www.wakemakers.com/resources/2013-malibu-plug-n-play-ballast-system/

Just now, SnubNose said:

1 1/8

I can draw up plans later... but essentially you will need some 1 1/8 hose (measure from tank vent to bag inlet routed behind seat), 1 1/8 hose from vent on bag to thru hull, bag fittings, 1 additional aerator pump for drain, splice crimps or solder for wiring, and clamps...

[gobble]

Could it be as simple as modifying the wakemakers system by hooking the fill back directly to the tank then capping the fill hole and a drain hole on the bag? That way the tank would overflow into the bag but the bag would probably drain half as fast. 

[gobble]

The more I think about this, a selector valve has to be the fix. First fill hard tank, it will vent through the bag, then switch to fill the bag. The draining works fine on mine it's the fill that's not working properly. I think this would fix that. 

Edited July 21, 2016 by gobble

[gobble]

Guys, I played around a little bit with drawing pictures that attempt to fix the air lock problem. One diagram Y's an extra fill line and another Y's an extra vent line. Which do you think will work better?

Edited July 22, 2016 by gobble

[SnubNose]

Finally got ahold of wake makers. They realive that the piggy back has been reported with issues. When they tested it they claim they never had the fill issue we are having. They are working on finding a solution for all of their customers. Even though a Y and valve may work they don't want the system to be a manual one. It is supposed to be fully automated. 

[gobble]

4 minutes ago, SnubNose said:

Finally got ahold of wake makers. They realive that the piggy back has been reported with issues. When they tested it they claim they never had the fill issue we are having. They are working on finding a solution for all of their customers. Even though a Y and valve may work they don't want the system to be a manual one. It is supposed to be fully automated. 

I'd rather have the Y and valve then not be able to fill my hard tanks....

I had the same conversation with them yesterday. They sent me 4 Y fittings to test the plumbing changes I referenced above. I don't understand why this is a new problem when there are threads from last year discussing the same issue. In one it sounds like a shut-off valve was shipped to fix the problem.

Another thing to consider is the factory PNP T's the rear bag drain to the drain pump that empties the hard tank. The vent is then left on the hard tank. This also seems like a good fix and you could also T a second vent line to the bag. Has anyone tried to access the drain hose in the rear?

 

 

Edited July 21, 2016 by gobble

[SnubNose]

Seriously. How long have these kits been on the market and they are just realizing now that it is an issue ? I am completely new to ballast systems so this is a whole new world for me. Trying to educate myself and resolve my problem as well. I heard the bakes system works good and it fills the hard tanks then overflow to bag then pump for drain on bag. It only comes in 3/4 hose setup though 

[MaliWop]

I have Factory PnP but I will be installing reversible pumps on switches up at the helm. At the end of the day I don't think there is any better way to do it. I feel that if I do it any other way I will still wish I just went with the reversible' s from the start. It will take extra time to install and there will be more costs (marginal when you consider the cost of the boat), but I will enjoy the boat far more. It'll be worth it in the end. If I were coming up with a solution on a boat that had no PnP to begin with, there would be absolutely no question in my mind that the reversible' s would be the way to go. What I'm getting at is do it right the first time and never look back (if you can manage). It can be done without having to drill or hack up the boat, as seen in a very good write-up on this forum. That's my $.02 even though nobody asked for it.

EDIT: My apologies as I wasn't reading this correctly. I forgot that you have already purchased and installed a Piggy Back System.

For the record this is the install I was referring to. You've likely already seen it.

 

Edited July 21, 2016 by MaliWop

[kerpluxal]

4 hours ago, gobble said:

Guys, I played around a little bit with drawing pictures that attempt to fix the air lock problem. One diagram Y's an extra fill line and another Y's an extra vent line. Which do you think will work better?

http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/waldvogelmj/media/fill.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/waldvogelmj/media/vent.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

 

Don't fill bag first, that is where the airlock is taking place... simplify it and remove all the y's

 

 

Fill hard tank 

Hard tank vent line to bag.

Vent bag to overflow line

Drain into tank (and I have a drain pump on the bag that is wired with the drain pump on hard tank). Or use a Y here to drain bag with separate pump to vent line... 

Have not set mine up this way as of yet... but it will be real soon.

[gobble]

9 minutes ago, kerpluxal said:

Don't fill bag first, that is where the airlock is taking place... simplify it and remove all the y's

 

 

Fill hard tank 

Hard tank vent line to bag.

Vent bag to overflow line

Drain into tank (and I have a drain pump on the bag that is wired with the drain pump on hard tank). Or use a Y here to drain bag with separate pump to vent line... 

Have not set mine up this way as of yet... but it will be real soon.

 

9 minutes ago, kerpluxal said:

Don't fill bag first, that is where the airlock is taking place... simplify it and remove all the y's

 

 

Fill hard tank 

Hard tank vent line to bag.

Vent bag to overflow line

Drain into tank (and I have a drain pump on the bag that is wired with the drain pump on hard tank). Or use a Y here to drain bag with separate pump to vent line... 

Have not set mine up this way as of yet... but it will be real soon.

A couple questions:

1. I read that the fill pump doesn't have enough head pressure to fill the bag from the hard tank upwards to the bag. Untrue?

2. You lose a drain from bag to hard tank in what you described. Absent the extra pump, wakemakers told me that would drain really slow. I had the same idea. 

Assuming the pump will fill up to the bag, maybe take my diagram where I Y'd into the fill line and eliminate the extra hose to the bag fill? Thoughts?

 

 

[gobble]

Based on the original Malibu PNP system filling up from the hard tank and the head pressure numbers of the pump, I'm going to try this first when my Y's arrive.

Edited July 21, 2016 by gobble

[gobble]

Slow moving thread that nobody other than me seems to have much interest in, but I think this would also work. You could close the valve when then hard tank is filling then open it once the hard tank is full. For me at least the dual gravity drains seem to work well enough that there would be no need to connect the bag to the pump line.

Edited July 21, 2016 by gobble

[kerpluxal]

1 hour ago, gobble said:

 

A couple questions:

1. I read that the fill pump doesn't have enough head pressure to fill the bag from the hard tank upwards to the bag. Untrue?

2. You lose a drain from bag to hard tank in what you described. Absent the extra pump, wakemakers told me that would drain really slow. I had the same idea. 

Assuming the pump will fill up to the bag, maybe take my diagram where I Y'd into the fill line and eliminate the extra hose to the bag fill? Thoughts?

 

 

I have not tested mine... but I don't believe I will lose any head pressure as I am not going to fill from bottom of bag. I do not want to over complicate mine with shut off valves. I normally wakeboard with my bags (1100) .75 full. I want to fill my tank first then overflow into bag... So:

Fill line into hard tank.

Vent on hard tank to fill on top of bag (not bottom of bag as your diagram shows)

I have already added a pump to the rear of my bag that currently drains into hard tank, but that is causing my air lock. so my bag drain pump will exit through the vent line.

 

Your diagram makes me nervous in that the chance of air locking still exists (from what I see). 

Malibu's 2016 plumbing has the tank vented out through the hull, not into the bag.... Venting the tank into the bottom of the bag in my eyes will still cause the air lock.

[vanamp]

I have been messing around with my tank/bag setup long enough.  I said screw it and just ordered the stuff to have a dedicated fill and drain pump for both the bag and the tank.  Working in the lockers is a pain and I don't want to mess around anymore.  Since the tanks are smaller than my bags I am leaving the factory 3/4" hose to the tanks and upgrading bag hoses to 1 1/8".

I am going to use wye's and check valves at the thru hulls for draining but am going to swap them out with 1 1/8" thru hulls.

[kerpluxal]

37 minutes ago, gobble said:

Based on the original Malibu PNP system filling up from the hard tank and the head pressure numbers of the pump, I'm going to try this first when my Y's arrive.

This is very close to the 2106 plumbing... except... bag does not vent out hull, and does not vent.... The vent from tank goes thru hull

With the concern of head pressure, you are still filling your bag from bottom to top in this diagram

Malibu 2016:

The bag does not have a vent on top so air can get trapped without anywhere to go which might decrease the overall capacity. Once the bag does reach it's capacity, water will overflow down into the hard tank. Speaking of the drain port... There are two new ports in the top of the hard tank for the bag to gravity drain into. One short section of hose runs from the front of the compartment to the bottom of the bag and another short section of hose runs from the rear of the compartment into a second port on the back side of the bag. (Bags used with the Hi Flo Malibu Plug and Play need drain ports on both sides). The bag will drain better but the system will still rely on gravity which has always been the complaint of the older generation WakeMakers Malibu Piggy Back Upgrade.

In a nut shell the system is good (not great) and inexpensive which is hard to say for any Malibu product these days. Looks to me like any of the new 2013 Straight Line Ballast bags will work on the latest generation of Malibu Plug and Play as long as you use an elbow quick connect fitting (Fly High W746) on the top. When the bag fills to capacity you don't want that hose to get kinked. Fly High also offers a line of 2013 Plug N Play bags with the required additional ports for draining.

[gobble]

19 minutes ago, kerpluxal said:

I have not tested mine... but I don't believe I will lose any head pressure as I am not going to fill from bottom of bag. I do not want to over complicate mine with shut off valves. I normally wakeboard with my bags (1100) .75 full. I want to fill my tank first then overflow into bag... So:

Fill line into hard tank.

Vent on hard tank to fill on top of bag (not bottom of bag as your diagram shows)

I have already added a pump to the rear of my bag that currently drains into hard tank, but that is causing my air lock. so my bag drain pump will exit through the vent line.

 

Your diagram makes me nervous in that the chance of air locking still exists (from what I see). 

Malibu's 2016 plumbing has the tank vented out through the hull, not into the bag.... Venting the tank into the bottom of the bag in my eyes will still cause the air lock.

A couple thoughts on what you said.

1. I believe and speaking from my experience with my reef tank head pressure would be the same whether the fill is to the top or the bottom of the bag. The head pressure (I'm 99% sure) is measured to the highest point the water is pumped. "The pressure at the bottom of a 40-foot lake or a 40-foot high thin tube would be identical, since only height is involved."

2. Instead of your pump pushing water from the bag to the hard tank can you T it into the drain hose that exits the hard tank, likely beyond the pump in that line?

Edited July 21, 2016 by gobble

[kerpluxal]

3 minutes ago, gobble said:

A couple thoughts on what you said.

1. I believe and speaking from my experience with my reef tank head pressure would be the same whether the fill is to the top or the bottom of the bag. The head pressure (I'm 99% sure) is measured to the highest point the water is pumped.

2. Instead of your pump pushing water from the bag to the hard tank can you T it into the drain hose that exits the hard tank, likely beyond the pump in that line?

Just questioning, because I will be testing and I think we are on the same page for the most part:

1. I believe and speaking from my experience with my reef tank head pressure would be the same whether the fill is to the top or the bottom of the bag. The head pressure (I'm 99% sure) is measured to the highest point the water is pumped.
   1. So would it matter then if it is the overflow of the hard tank to the bag?
2. Instead of your pump pushing water from the bag to the hard tank can you T it into the drain hose that exits the hard tank, likely beyond the pump in that line?
   1. Not sure what you are stating here... new Diagram??? LOL

The one thing that I know is that the tank has to vent (not to bottom of bag) or you will air lock.

[gobble]

6 minutes ago, kerpluxal said:

Just questioning, because I will be testing and I think we are on the same page for the most part:

1. I believe and speaking from my experience with my reef tank head pressure would be the same whether the fill is to the top or the bottom of the bag. The head pressure (I'm 99% sure) is measured to the highest point the water is pumped.
   1. So would it matter then if it is the overflow of the hard tank to the bag?
2. Instead of your pump pushing water from the bag to the hard tank can you T it into the drain hose that exits the hard tank, likely beyond the pump in that line?
   1. Not sure what you are stating here... new Diagram??? LOL

The one thing that I know is that the tank has to vent (not to bottom of bag) or you will air lock.

I guess I was thinking you could do this

 

I was also thinking in what I drew earlier that it would vent ok through the bag as long as water wasn't trying to rush in from the bag like the original wakemakers design. Air would be able to escape into the bag in that picture (I think) where it can't now because water is blocking the air from escaping and gravity can't overcome that.

[kerpluxal]

1 minute ago, gobble said:

I guess I was thinking you could do this

 

I was also thinking in what I drew earlier that it would vent ok through the bag as long as water wasn't trying to rush in from the bag like the original wakemakers design. Air would be able to escape into the bag in that picture (I think) where it can't now because water is blocking the air from escaping and gravity can't overcome that.

That is what I am doing :P except bag pump for now drains to vent... eventually back into tank

[gobble]

Since I don't have the Y's yet, I plan to test this when I get home tonight. It's incomplete on the drain part but would be a good test on the fill side.

[kerpluxal]

 

Just now, gobble said:

Since I don't have the Y's yet, I plan to test this when I get home tonight. It's incomplete on the drain part but would be a good test on the fill side.

Let me know how that goes, that was another idea I had, but with the pump between bag and tank I don't have a way to make pretty pictures right now  ..... I was going to try that diagram first, but that is where I get concerned on the head pressure... if it works... I will modify and repost for drain