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Couple of speaker & sub comparison questions


Big_Moose_Wakesetter

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I've got a couple of questions for the audio experts that I thought I'd float out here to get some impressions...

My VLX came with an old 8" Kicker Lolo-Baric sub that was in a box in the compartment behind the observer's seat. I literally couldn't hear it at all unless I opened the hatch. I discovered that I could hear it a little if I pointed it sideways at the hull, but it was pretty much useless (didn't help that it was initially hooked up to a single 45W channel on the amp, but it wasn't much better when I bridged 2 channels).

I got a great deal on a used Wetsounds XS-10FA sub at the end of last season. It's an older model though with dual 4-Ohm voice coils and 250W RMS (500W peak). I've got a 5-channel Polk amp on the way from the forum classifieds that is rated at 400W RMS @ 2 Ohms. Hopefully that's not too much power to kill it. I'm planning to build a sealed box for it and putting it in the driver kick-panel. I'm not looking to spend a lot right now and I don't need to blow any fish out of the water - I just want to be able to hear it a bit at wakeboarding speed.

Sorry for all the setup, but I stumbled across a 12" Polk DXi124DVC at Best Buy for about $70 I believe. It's a 12" 4-Ohm dual voice coil rated at 360W RMS (720W peak). I know the 12" Wetsounds sub or something comparable would be a 'safer' bet and more ideal, but I don't think that's in the cards any time soon unless I stumble on a great deal. Any impressions with either of these subs? Anyone think I'd be better off with one over the other in a sealed box running off that amp? I have little experience with subs so I'm not sure if moving to a cheaper 12" is likely to make it a bit more audible or not running on the same amount of power as the 10".

My other question is more for planning for next year. Just looking for same-brand impressions on how 'worthwhile an upgrade is from in-boat speakers in the 65W RMS range to 100W. I'm planning to settle with my stock 65W Sonys for another year, but I'm keeping an eye out for 6 replacements. Again, I'd love to go w/ Wetsounds but I'll probably opt for something a bit cheaper. I've been looking at Polks here as well. Like most brands, they have 65W and 100W options. If I go w/ 100W RMS per speaker it obviously gets a lot more expensive since I'll need an amp upgrade as well. Just trying to get an idea where I'd like to go incase any good deals pop up in the near future!

Thanks as always!!!

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No doubt there are people here a lot smarter than me with marine audio, but here's some observations I've made over some significant number of years with getting good performance out of marine audio systems.

1. You can't have too much amp. Of course, you don't want to blow speakers, so just don't max out the volume. If you really want your system to thump and crank, you need a lot of amp. A single 5 channel can be sufficient but it needs to be a high output amp of good quality. Make sure the amp has sufficient ventilation to avoid overtemp problems.

2. Use good quality cables in order to avoid picking up static and hiss. Ground everything to a common heavy duty ground.

3. The enclosure is perhaps more important than the speaker. In other words, make sure the enclosure is well designed and engineered before worrying too much about the speaker. For a sub, it needs to be very solidly mounted to the floor with a proper design. A tube works well. I'm not a fan of fully sealed sub enclosures....particularly where they're going to be enclosed in a locker or something like that. A couple well placed ports does a lot to liven up the sub sound.

4. In a 22' boat, a single well placed and designed/built sub can be enough....again. lots of amp, good enclosure, solidly mounted to the floor. 8" is a big small, but it can work. 10-12" is better.

5. 4 to 6 well placed speakers in good enclosures is lots for a 22' boat as well - make sure the speakers are good quality, solidly mounted to the interior structure, and pointed in the right direction. The boat interior structure then acts like one big passive speaker and this really helps to round out the sound. 6" rounds are good, 6"X9" are better if you have the room. I wouldn't bother with separates (mids and tweets) as there's enough ambient noise on a boat that it's really not worth it.

6. Solder all your connections. In a marine environment, this is particularly important.

Good luck!

Edited by CliffB
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B_M_W,

Yes, you have to get the sub out of the observer's locker and under the driver's helm. The port side losses are huge making both the woofer and amplifier run inordinately hard with no musicality....just indiscriminant rumble and shake.

Try to avoid placing a free-air or infinite-baffle subwoofer in a small sealed enclosure. You'll have lots of midbass and no deep bass.

You want a subwoofer and sub amplifier that works well below its full capability so that it sounds its best. The sub and amp that operates most conservatively almost always sounds the best. Sub surface area is important. Usually the larger the better. A bass-reflex 10-inch will have only the slightest advantage over a sealed 12-inch. However, a sealed 12-inch is often a bit smaller enclosure and far easier to build. Side-firing a sealed enclosure against the hull gives you a bit more output. Do not use an off-the-shelf automotive subwoofer enclosure. You certainly don't want China MDF anywhere in a boat no matter what you cover it with.

David

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Is the Polk amp you bought the PA D5000.5? If so, right on....it's a damn good amp. Same amp as many other brands on the market....like the $700 Hertz HDP5! You won't have to worry about it overheating.

Power handling is a factor that needs to be concerned, but don't get so hung up on it. There's a whole sleu of other factors that make a speaker loud and sound good.

I promise you this is the best advice anyone will give you, check out the Bravox speaker buyout at Parts Express. Bravox has been around for 60 years. They design and manufactuer speakers for themselves and a number of companies. They have a nice selection of subs left on PE, and also have a marine coaxial speaker for $19 each. This speaker will outperform the Polk DB651 (the Polks are still good speakers BTW), and will perform identically to a speaker like the Wetsounds XS-65.

Edited by CRF-Rider
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Thanks to everyone for their input!!!

B_M_W,

Yes, you have to get the sub out of the observer's locker and under the driver's helm. The port side losses are huge making both the woofer and amplifier run inordinately hard with no musicality....just indiscriminant rumble and shake.

Try to avoid placing a free-air or infinite-baffle subwoofer in a small sealed enclosure. You'll have lots of midbass and no deep bass.

You want a subwoofer and sub amplifier that works well below its full capability so that it sounds its best. The sub and amp that operates most conservatively almost always sounds the best. Sub surface area is important. Usually the larger the better. A bass-reflex 10-inch will have only the slightest advantage over a sealed 12-inch. However, a sealed 12-inch is often a bit smaller enclosure and far easier to build. Side-firing a sealed enclosure against the hull gives you a bit more output. Do not use an off-the-shelf automotive subwoofer enclosure. You certainly don't want China MDF anywhere in a boat no matter what you cover it with.

David

David - Thanks you're always so helpful with these types of questions. I am indeed planning to build my own box. Already picked up most of the materials except for either fiberglass resin or perhaps some spray-on bedliner to coat it with. Just having trouble trying to decide if I should build a box for this 10" Wetsounds sub or just get something bigger first. I really like the idea of a side-firing enclosure after seeing the improvement when aiming that sub I had towards the side hull - I hadn't considered that! I found the manual for the older XS-10FA I have and they recommended a 0.7ft^3 sealed enclosure. It says "due to specific Thiele-Small parameters, [it] is more suitable for sealed enclosure" (comparing to vented). The guy I bought it from was also selling an XS-12 very cheap at the time as well but someone beat me to that one...I'm getting more and more sad about that right now.

Is the Polk amp you bought the PA D5000.5? If so, right on....it's a damn good amp. Same amp as many other brands on the market....like the $700 Hertz HDP5! You won't have to worry about it overheating.

Power handling is a factor that needs to be concerned, but don't get so hung up on it. There's a whole sleu of other factors that make a speaker loud and sound good.

I promise you this is the best advice anyone will give you, check out the Bravox speaker buyout at Parts Express. Bravox has been around for 60 years. They design and manufactuer speakers for themselves and a number of companies. They have a nice selection of subs left on PE, and also have a marine coaxial speaker for $19 each. This speaker will outperform the Polk DB651 (the Polks are still good speakers BTW), and will perform identically to a speaker like the Wetsounds XS-65.

Thanks a lot for the suggestion. I remember taking a look at these when someone (maybe you) posted about them a little while back. Anyone heard these and have impressions? I believe PE also had an S6 (or something) marine coax speaker that was 100W RMS but that's no longer available - I might have jumped on that. I don't see any of the subs mentioning that they're marine rated however. Should I be concerned about that with a sub in the kick-panel or is it not particularly necessary?

And yes the amp is the Polk PA D5000.5. Really looking forward to getting it - arrives Thurs I believe. I'm definitely thinking I might want to sell the Wetsounds XS-10FA I have in favor of something that's 12" and 400-500 W RMS. It's great that this amp can put out 400W at 2 Ohms and 500W at 1 Ohm stable on the sub channel. I wish I could find an older Wetsounds XS12 with the dual 2 Ohm voice coils (which they haven't made for at least a few years) but a quick google search didn't find anything...

Edited by Big_Moose_Wakesetter
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B_M_W,

Pertaining to the 'marine-rated' subwoofers....here is what you need to know.

An automotive stamped steel basket with a poly cone and a foam surround may be fine in a side-firing arrangement where the sub is protected from direct UV exposure by the cover facade. It may also be fine in a fresh water area but definitely not in a coastal or very brackish (fresh water dumping into salt water) area.

A paper woofer is another issue. Pressed paper fiber will absorb moisture in a highly humid marine situation and that definitely changes its parameters. 'Humid' might be described as water in the bilge or damp carpet and under cover when sweat/condensation collects on everything. Some woofers have a protective coating on the front but rarely have any protection on the back of the cone which becomes a larger factor in a ported enclosure.

David

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Thanks to everyone for their input!!!

Thanks a lot for the suggestion. I remember taking a look at these when someone (maybe you) posted about them a little while back. Anyone heard these and have impressions? I believe PE also had an S6 (or something) marine coax speaker that was 100W RMS but that's no longer available - I might have jumped on that. I don't see any of the subs mentioning that they're marine rated however. Should I be concerned about that with a sub in the kick-panel or is it not particularly necessary?

Personally I don't care if a sub is marine rated or not. There's no "marine rated" sub that would give me the performance I want anyway. All of the Bravox subs will do just as well on your boat as any marine rated sub out there. You won't have a problem on that front...

Yeah they used to have the M6 (100w) on PE, but I'm sure someone finally realized what they were getting for $20 a speaker and cleaned them out. I've heard both the 65w version and 100w version, and actually have a video (pardon my language in the vid...I was just playing around). In the vid the 65w version are being powered by a tripath amp, 20w to each speaker. Please read between the lines when I said "They design and manufactuer speakers for a number of companies" followed by "they will perform identically to a speaker like the Wetsounds XS-65". You will not find a better marine speaker at a better price. It's a shame you didn't get the M6's while they had them.

Edited by Ronnie
Video is a violation of the TOU's. First warning.
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